Driving the CBus

In this episode, I interview Scott McComb, President and CEO of Heartland Bank – and host of the podcast Driving the CBus. Featuring insights from individual contributors from all corners, nooks and crannies of the Columbus, Ohio region, Scott has a goal to get to the why of our evolving and eclectic environment. We cover why he started the podcast, what he wants to accomplish, and what the future holds for the podcast.

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Brett Johnson:
So Scott, a non-profit you, or Heartland Bank likes to support. Tell me about it.

Scott McComb:
Yeah that's … How much time do we have? That is a extremely large question. Part of what community banking is all about is focusing on the community, and what is needed in the community. Because of that, we are sponsors, and supporters of well over 100 nonprofit organizations inside of Central Ohio, and on a national basis.

Scott McComb:
Some of the larger ones I think that we have supported is we are a big supporter of the USO of Central and Southern Ohio – "We're the Force behind the Force" – that are armed-forces men, and women in active duty service.

Scott McComb:
Our big mantra for the bank on an annual basis … We have a golf outing that supports children's charities. We firmly believe in the principle set by Colin Powell. The little red wagon concept that he had, about 15-20 years ago, where, if you can invest in a child's- early-childhood-development type causes, you can make a serious impact to their lives.

Scott McComb:
That brings us to all kinds of different charities that we've supported over the course of time, whether it's Junior Achievement, or whether it's the Lutheran Social Services, which is a very diverse group. Everything from Meals on Wheels, to childhood development, to reading, and workforce development, to … Victory Ministries is another one that we've supported. The Ohio Dyslexic Learning Center for children with dyslexia. That's hard to say, today, for whatever reason. There's just a whole host of ones that we've covered. Special Olympics … I couldn't list them all.

Brett Johnson:
Sure. That sounds good. I think there are certain categories of businesses that are obligated, almost. It's a good thing to do, and you know you need to do it. It's not one of those, "Hey, we've got to do this now" No, We've gotta do this." [cross talk].

Scott McComb:
Community banking is about taking capital inside the community. We take deposits, and investors that are willing to give us their capital, so we can provide them a return. Those are our shareholders. Then, we take depositors' money, loan it out locally to businesses, and it becomes this perpetual circle.

Scott McComb:
One of the things that is super-important is benevolence. Making sure that there's a food pantry, and that the food pantry has the resources it needs, in every community that we serve; things like that. It's just what community banking is all about.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Let's talk a little bit about your professional background, and history up to this point.

Scott McComb:
Sure. I have a very different background than most folks in my business. I'm an entrepreneur in the banking world. My father was a career banker; started off in a finance company, then got into community banking, here in town, with the Grove City Savings Bank in 1967.

Scott McComb:
That's when we moved to town, and I was one years old. I was born in Ironton, Ohio, and came up here … My whole family's from West Virginia. We are hillbillies, and the rest of the family's still living in the trailer behind the house in the holler. That's just the way it happens.

Scott McComb:
We were lucky enough to make it out of there, through the power of 4-H. My father actually made it out of the mountains, because he got a scholarship to Marshall University to be the captain of the livestock judging team … He majored in biology. Very eclectic background, there.

Scott McComb:
My background: we moved to Grove City, Ohio, here, and my father ran the Grove City Savings Bank for a guy named Jack Havens, who is one of the founders of modern-day Columbus, really. Chairman of Bank One; Chairman of the Ohio State University. He worked for him, and George Gestos.

Scott McComb:
Anyway, long story short, I finished high school. I was in college. Went to Grove City High School. Went to Ohio State … I was either gonna go to Ohio State, or go in the Marine Corps, because I was kind of a troubled youth. I was never really in trouble, but I liked to have fun … I think we've all been there.

Scott McComb:
I went to Ohio State, and I majored in High Street, and High Street was-

Brett Johnson:
I've heard that twice now, on my podcast.

Scott McComb:
Yeah, High Street is a great place. You learn to budget. You learn to love. You learn to fight. All those great things, right? I majored in High Street. Never really even declared a major, until I went back the second time, frankly.

Scott McComb:
When my father got to a certain point, where his bank was sold – he was working for a larger bank – he started Heartland Bank, and he was going to start Heartland Bancorp from scratch, and buy another smaller bank, and change the name to Heartland. That's how Heartland started.

Scott McComb:
When he did that though, he realized … He had a big epiphany moment in his life, where he said, "You know, really, Scott, the only way to wealth, to true wealth, is to own a business, and to earn money through equity; earn capital through equity. You can't really save your way to wealth, and to financial independence. It's just extremely difficult to do that."

Scott McComb:
He encouraged me to start my own business, as well. I was, again, majoring in High Street, and he helped me … He helped me start a home and business monitored-security-system company. I started that when I was 20. I ran that for about 10 years. It was called PFM Alert Systems. That standed for Police, Fire, and Medical Alert Systems.

Scott McComb:
That sprouted a couple other things. I sprouted a janitorial business, because I didn't make any money in the security business, for the first four or five years. To pay the mortgage, I had to clean other offices, and it just so happened, he needed a janitor at the bank. My first job at Heartland Bank, I was the janitor.

Scott McComb:
I cleaned the office in the Grove City office. Then, we had a Wilson Road office; then we had a 161 Frantz Road-Dublin office. I cleaned that. I had three or four different cleaning jobs. Then I started contracting out for other cleaning jobs, and that became a whole business, where I had employees, and 1099 contractors, and that kind of stuff. Meanwhile, the security business continued to thrive, and do really well.

Scott McComb:
I took the proverbial quarter off of High Street, at Ohio State, because reality was hitting me in the head, and I was doing … I was starting to do well. I was starting to turn a profit, and do those things, so I dropped out of school, and I just ran my business.

Scott McComb:
Did really well for about 10 years in that business. I was offered a number to … Was approached to sell the business, and they said "Well, just write a number on a piece of paper", and I wrote a number on the piece paper. and they took it; and I thought, "Damn, I should have probably asked for more money!"

Brett Johnson:
One more zero! Why not one more zero? Yeah, right.

Scott McComb:
My gosh, what did I do? Anyway, I went to work …I sold the business; did really well. Paid off all my debt. Put away money for the kid's college education. Went on to work for corporate America, with a company called Vector Security. Vector's one of the top three, probably, alarm companies in the nation, and a very, very good company, but you can't own any of the company; no one can own any of the company.

Scott McComb:
It's actually a wholly owned subsidiary of the Philadelphia Contributionship, which is the very first insurance company that was started by Benjamin Franklin in 1752. Goes way, way, way, way, way, back, and no one owns any of it except for the Philadelphia Contributionship. They paid me very well, but it was very disenchanting, because I wasn't building equity again.

Scott McComb:
I was going to start something else. I gave them three months' notice, and said, "Guys, this has been great. You paid me really well; took care of me, but I really gotta build equity, here. I've learned the only way to true wealth is through owning a business, and creating equity through sweat equity, and creating values."

Scott McComb:
I left there, and I was going to start something else. My father and I were on a golf trip in Orlando, Florida, and we're sitting at the bar having a Jack Daniels. That's what him and I like to drink, and what we drink together. I said to him, "Hey, is there anything I could do for you at the bank?" and he said, "Let's talk about that."

Scott McComb:
He laid out a whole plan of what I would do at the bank, and he agreed to give me a salary, which was 50 percent of what I was making at Vector Security, but I had no experience in the banking business. I said, "Okay, great. Let's do it."

Scott McComb:
I joined him at the bank as the Director of Internet Banking. We launched – very first thing that was in the technology world – driving, launching an internet bank, or the internet portion of the bank, in 1999, which was pretty revolutionary back in 1999.

Scott McComb:
I started there, and my entrepreneurial skills that I had learned in the previous decade really just kicked in, in the banking world. There's not a lot of entrepreneurs in the banking world. It was very easy to go in, and make common-sense decisions, work circles around folks … Entrepreneurs work 10-12 hours a day. That's what they do every day. Bankers not so much; bankers are usually [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
The banker hours come true.

Scott McComb:
-working the banker hours. Not so much anymore, but back in that time frame, that's the way it was. I joined the bank, and I never really gave up any responsibility. I learned the business. I was a teller for a while. I was the worst teller on the planet. I have dyslexia, so I transposed numbers, I can't read really fast, unless it's a financial statement, or something like that. If you threw a box, opened up a box of matches, and threw 'em out, I'd get within five of how many are on the table, just guessing. I have that going on, as well, which is confusing, and exciting at the same time.

Scott McComb:
I came through the bank, and I kept getting promoted, and taking on more responsibility. I'm a natural salesperson, and I love to build relationships, so, that worked out really well. I ended up becoming a loan officer, and getting a whole portfolio of customers that I brought into the bank.

Scott McComb:
Then, they made me the Chief Operating Officer of the bank, like seven years after I joined the bank. I thought to myself, "Wow, if I play my cards right, they might let me run this place." Because I knew my father was gonna retire … I'm coming up through the ranks, but I didn't have my degree. I'd promised my mom, before she died – I lost my mom very early – that I would finish my degree one day.

Scott McComb:
I put those two things together, and I decided this is the time to go do it. In 2007, I went back to school, and was running the bank as the bank's Chief Operating Officer; also, during the financial crisis, and then, I was going to school at night in Ohio State. I ended up graduating in 2009 [cross talk] Thank you. I'm very proud of that. It was a lot of work, a lot of dedication.

Scott McComb:
Then, I guess in between there, I went to the Graduate School of Banking at the University of Wisconsin. That was in the early 2000s, it was like 2000-2003. A lot of education there. That's really where they teach banking there. You don't learn it in college, you learn it when you get out in the field, and in multiple other schools, and in courses, and things in the banking world.

Scott McComb:
My philosophy is that I never stop learning. I'm like a sponge. I'm afraid that I'm going to fall behind by not constantly figuring out how I can make myself better, or how I can find the next thing for my team to execute.

Scott McComb:
That's my background. It's a lot different than what you'd hear from other folks. Whenever I tell other bankers that, they can't believe that … They just can't believe it. They're like, "Oh, my gosh, no wonder!" So much things make sense, after that point-

Brett Johnson:
Sure. Sure.

Brett Johnson:
-because we don't run our bank like a bank. We run it like a technology company; like another business. If we want to run in herds with the other banks, then that makes what we deliver a commodity. Most people think banking is a commodity. I've discharged my team with going after the three or four percent of the population that understands value, and if we get those folks in the door, then we've successfully doubled the size of the bank, and we're probably doing pretty well.

Brett Johnson:
Exactly. Let's go into why a podcast for the bank. What were you thinking about?

Scott McComb:
Well, again, podcasts are hot. People want to understand. They want snippets. They don't want an hour long, or they don't want two hours long; a dissertation on this, or that, or the other thing, but they're very interested.

Scott McComb:
The population now understands that knowledge is at their fingertips. Well, that didn't happen … That's only been there for about 11 years, 12 years … The advent of the iPhone, or the iPod. Besides that, you had the internet, and podcasting really wasn't that popular, because it wasn't convenient. You had to be sitting at your desk.

Scott McComb:
Well, now, if I'm running, I can listen to a podcast. I'm out doing sit-ups, or I'm out fishing; I'm out knitting, I'm doing whatever … I can educate myself. I think there's a whole class of people, a large portion of the population, that has that same desire that I have. That, "Hey, what am I missing? What else can I … How can I stimulate myself, besides sitting in front of the TV, and have somebody lie to me, or try to change my opinion on something, or whatever? How can I educate myself, and maybe understand culture better? Maybe reach a new level of enlightenment?"

Scott McComb:
I think that's what podcasts do to folks, so, I thought that it would be really cool to have a podcast, where we could pump the bank a little bit, but it's really not about the bank. People don't want to be sold anything, right? That's just not what people want to be sold. They want to confirm their decisions. They want to be enlightened.

Scott McComb:
Moreover, I wanted to let people know, because Columbus is now this hot … One of the hottest cities east of the Mississippi. I wanted everybody to understand why, and how it got that way. That was the whole part of Driving the CBus. Who is driving the CBus? Obviously, CBus is Columbus, but who is driving it, and how did we get here? It wasn't by accident that we got here.

Scott McComb:
I've been in this town all my life, and when I have people grow up, younger folks in their 30s, they don't know Jack Havens. They don't know what the Ohio Sports Commission does. They don't understand the place of Kip Morse, and the Better Business Bureau, and what they've done. They don't understand local radio, with Randy Malloy, and CD102.5, and what they've been fighting.

Scott McComb:
I just thought it was a really good topic to start off with. That was our first line of topics. Now, I think we're shifting to where we're going to talk about just business in general, and then some other things that are happening in central Ohio, and try to keep it going.

Brett Johnson:
You got a team around you thinking about this, brainstorming, or is it just you, solo, going, "Hey, we're gonna do this … We're gonna do this …"?

Scott McComb:
We have a little bit of a team. I was the impetus of the whole team. We have a really crack marketing team. My assistant, Tracy Bayles, is really a crack person, and helps out a lot with me brainstorming stuff.

Brett Johnson:
By the way, she's in the room, folks [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
Yes, she is here, and she just winked at me, so, it's cool. Then, my daughter Kailyn really helped us. She was the producer of Driving the CBus. She has really had an impetus there. We also have a group called Distribution Strategies, which is led by a young gal, named Ashley Trout. Ashley is one of the most creative people in our company. She is able to take all the wild ideas that I come up with, and boil them into value, and then execute … Her, and her group executes that value. She's helped me out quite a bit, as well.

Brett Johnson:
Well, good. From first thought of the podcast to open mic, and recording, how long did that take for you?

Scott McComb:
It took about two and a half months. We read some white papers on how to do podcasts; we listened to some podcasts. We had a little focus group – inside the bank – of people that listen to podcasts regularly, about what they like, and what they don't like.

Scott McComb:
We read one paper, I can remember it was the impetus, I forget the name of the author who it was, but basically said, "The most important thing is don't script it. It can be about anything. It has to be in a manageable amount of time, and the most expensive thing that you should really focus on is a really good microphone."

Brett Johnson:
Right.

Scott McComb:
Those are the things we took to heart, and I created the questions that I would ask. I created … Sent those out to our folks, and I created our first 10 or 12 guests. Kailyn produced them, and then off to the races we went.

Brett Johnson:
How hard was it to get those first guests, when you didn't have a podcast produced, and you're calling them, going, "I want you to be a guest"?

Scott McComb:
They were so excited. They were just excited to be part of it. The whole idea that I had was to obviously do things not only to tell the story, and all that, and you try to help the community, but you're obviously trying to help yourself, as well. If there's no reward, or some gratification, or some way that it helps, then what are you doing with your time? We live in that kind of society.

Scott McComb:
I actually hoped, and we actually were able to accomplish, where we could take our social media circles, and promote the podcast, and we were hoping to marry up with their social, the guests' social media circles, and maybe we'll meet somebody new. Maybe somebody will learn something different.

Scott McComb:
It's so inexpensive. It doesn't take a lot of time. There is a craft behind it, and frankly, it's becoming even more, and more eclectic over the course of time, with cameras, with all kinds of things, where people can look, and see … I actually drove to Cleveland to watch a podcast of things you should know, which is super-popular. There's millions of people that watch things, listen to things you should know. She wanted to go and see the podcast, so she drove up there with a friend to see the podcast that I thought, "Wow, you know the podcasts have arrived, when someone's gonna drive two and a half hours one way to check it out."

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, and I think we're dealing with a generation that's never experienced … You and I are at the cusp of it. We can listen to old radio programs. That's what they did. That was the entertainment form at the time, but, I think it's really cool that it's going back to that, that somebody will drive, or spend money to sit in an audience, and watch two people talking, or three people talking behind a table, and be entertained. Simple as that. It amazes me that it's come back to that again. I think it's great.

Scott McComb:
I think the death of cable is upon us. Really, it is. I think that the sitcom … I think the lackluster of Hollywood, all those things are … people have better things to do with their time. Now, we have books on tape. We have all kinds of things. I think the more nonfiction type entertainment models, and inputs are really coming on with this generation.

Scott McComb:
The millennial, everyone wants to throw the millennial generation under the bus, about, "Oh, they sit in the basement, and play video games, and they're living here til 35." That's not true. There's a very, very, very, small group of the millennial generation that are doing that.

Brett Johnson:
There's been a piece of every generation that did that.

Scott McComb:
That's right. Exactly.

Brett Johnson:
Every generation. Yeah.

Scott McComb:
Exactly. That's just wrong. Frankly, we hire a lot of millennials that are at our bank, and if we can get more, and more of them, that's what we want to do. The fact the matter is they are very focused. They do treasure their time, but because they can use technology … They grew up never having to change a channel, to get up to change a channel. They're not afraid of the technology, so they can run rings around us baby boomers, and X'ers. They're just three times more effective with what they can do with the tools. They don't need as much time to get the same stuff done. Let's face it.

Brett Johnson:
Right, and looking at it as tools, too. They have that recognition, where X'ers, and Boomers are going, "This is so fun, I'm getting sucked in …" It's like, "No, it's a tool. Stop!"

Scott McComb:
Well, that, and also women in the workforce. I'm a big proponent for single moms, and for just women, in general. They are able to handle so much more on a different level, emotionally. I don't know how to explain it, but they're just more effective. Now that we're having more, and more women in the workforce, I think we're finding that we have … If you take those tools, and you put them together, a more decisive, focused workforce with technology, no wonder we have all the productivity we have, and we're chasing inflation that we can't ever get.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Yeah. With your busy schedule, how did you figure out a publishing schedule? How many times per month? Every week? How did you figure that out? What did you want to do?

Scott McComb:
My schedule was very hectic, so, what we were able to do, though, is do it in spurts. I would set up three in a row, and do three in a row; produce them. Then we would wait to launch them. We did them in spurts, when my schedule would allow.

Scott McComb:
Summertime is a decent time to do those. The spring and the fall are usually very, very busy with travel for me, because I have some national positions. Then, the Winter, I like to spend some time in Florida, and get out of these Ohio winters. We were able to do them in spurts, and I think we had a total of maybe five recording sessions for 12 podcasts, and it worked out pretty well.

Brett Johnson:
I think a lot of podcasters do a batch recording. It's just easier; it fits the schedule. As long as it's not time-sensitive, it's okay. It works out just fine.

Scott McComb:
It's not time-sensitive, but, that's the thing … If your topic is about current events, though, then it's-

Brett Johnson:
Can't do it. Right.

Scott McComb:
You can't do it, and if you're gonna do something, have segments about current events, and things, then it wouldn't work out so well.

Brett Johnson:
Any references to it, of-

Scott McComb:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
"This coming summer …" Oh, gotta edit that out.

Scott McComb:
That's right. Exactly.

Brett Johnson:
But it happens, yeah … You talked about social media, between yourself, as well as guests. What was the social media strategy, at least for your podcast? Which channels to use? Which social media has you've seen work real well, and maybe ones like, "Nah, kick that to the curb; it's just not working"?

Scott McComb:
We're very active on social media, primarily for the bank, on Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook; not so much on Instagram, and not so much on Pinterest. We've really used those three things along with our website. We have a lot of customers, because they're doing internet banking, and paying bills, and checking their balance. Very active website.

Scott McComb:
We were able to push those things out on those mediums. Never really did a press release, per se, we just wanted to put it out there, and let people start to see, and see what kinda reaction we got. Obviously, we wanna maintain our reputation risk as a financial institution.

Scott McComb:
It was very important that Scott didn't get out there, and say something that would offend people that are depositors, or whatever. We wanted to be very sensitive to that. At the same time, I think my customers, they bank with us because they know who we are, and we're very transparent; we're just going to say what we feel, and we believe everyone else should be able to say what they feel – no big deal.

Scott McComb:
Those are the mediums that we really chose, so, we drove those … A very regimented preemptive announcement for each launch. One that's gonna launch on Saturday, we would hit the media, hit all those mediums, and say, "Okay, this is coming on Saturday", and then maybe one or two more posts about that coming up, and then it's live. Then we're back into square one, again, waiting for the next episode to be launched.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah. You're using YouTube as, basically, the platform. I wanna know, why did you choose YouTube?

Scott McComb:
Well, it's just where we had videos already. We have various interviews from me, and other mediums. What we would hope is that because everything was already there, that they would see this, and then maybe go to see some other things that had to do with the bank, and get to know us, and what a community player, and a community supporter we are.

Brett Johnson:
Gotcha. Your current setup for "studio," what's it like? Describe it.

Scott McComb:
It is basically the Amerine Conference Room at Heartland Bancorp. It's just a basic conference room; not a big one. We don't do anything special. My daughter Kailyn plugs in microphones into her laptop; we have two microphones there that are $150 a piece. That's our total cost, and a little piece of software, and that's it.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, good. She does the editing, as well, then, too [cross talk]

Scott McComb:
She does the editing. We try not to do a ton of editing, because we really want it to be real, and conversational. I think podcast listeners understand that … They don't want it to be too scripted. They want people to speak off the cuff, and talk about things that come to their mind, and be very genuine in their delivery of the material.

Brett Johnson:
Sure. What are your biggest challenges in creating the podcast?

Scott McComb:
Biggest challenge is my schedule, and lining up with Kailyn's schedule, because that's not what she does full time. This is an add-on to her thing. We really don't have somebody that we've hired to specifically do this, that does that for a living, and such, and so forth. That was a big challenge, getting it going.

Scott McComb:
Another challenge of getting going was getting buy-in, internally. I do a lot of things where I don't have a lot of buy-in, because I think that I'm going to create the buy-in. I lose as many times as I win, but I'm not afraid to lose, on the aspect that you have to take risks in order to win.

Scott McComb:
I think everybody knows that at the bank, that I'm willing to jump out, and do something new, to see what happens, and try it, and see how effective it might be. That was a little bit of a thing. People were like, "I don't know what that's gonna be about …" What kind of reputation risk do we take? "What's he gonna say?" Nobody ever knows what I'm gonna say, and I kinda like it that way. Those are a few things.

Scott McComb:
Besides that, we really didn't have any challenges. It was very smooth, and once we did the first couple episodes, people were like, "Hey, when's the next one? What's the next one gonna be about?" or, "Hey, here's a suggested guest you could have …" "I really like this." We got a lot of feedback, a lot of likes; social media really took to it. I think we really accomplished what we set out to do.

Brett Johnson:
I think that leads into the next question about advice for businesses, not necessarily in the banking industry, but any business interested in podcasting – from your experience, what you've had to do internally. Not, again, businesses that are like yours, but they're going to run into those walls of internal, "Uh, do I really wanna do that?" What advice would you give?

Scott McComb:
Well, a lot of folks'll say, "Well, geez, you only had 35 people listen to that. That's not very much". Well, have you ever done direct mail? You're gonna send out 5,000 things, and you might get 10 phone calls. That's better than direct. mail, and it's cheaper. Before you shut the door on it, and you decide never to do it, why not try it?

Scott McComb:
I think the big thing is that they have to have a commitment to it, to keep it going over time. Even if you did one or two a year, or three a year, and you're talking about your business, and what you did, and everything else, there's nothing bad, I think, that can come from that, unless you get too political, or if you- with your business … Maybe your business is only gonna cater to people on the left, or whatever. That's fine if that's an angle that you're gonna go for, but you do take some risk in that regard.

Scott McComb:
Besides that, I really don't see any downside to people telling their story. Because, especially, in Columbus, for instance … In Columbus, people support local ventures, and they wanna know your story. Part of what we even tell our Heartland Bank associates is, "Go out, and tell your Heartland story. This isn't a mechanical thing. You're helping make this story over the course of time. Go tell your story, and people will become believers."

Scott McComb:
I truly feel that any business can do that, as well, if they are ethical, if their associates are taken care of properly, and they have a positive attitude, and they have the utmost in integrity. I really think you could take this medium. and make it work for you.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, because you can't fake what you just did. You can't. It's from the heart. Yes, there are actors that can put on the voices, and such, but we're not actors. We've not been trained to do so. I think the inhibitions come down, and you just want to talk, and talk about yourself, and talk about the story, and talk about helping people, for the most part.

Scott McComb:
Right. They definitely don't have short, fat, bald, actors. That's for sure. I would not be an actor.

Brett Johnson:
Without giving away too many secrets, possibly, maybe a vagueness … Some future plans for the podcast? Where do you want to go with it [cross talk]

Scott McComb:
I'd be more than happy to tell we're going. We're an open book. Where I want to go is I want to find someone to help us to be more professional in putting it on. I'd like to true it up a little bit more, with taking on a challenge of going to some of the other things, like, if we had a video thing of it, a video portion of the podcast. Not every one, maybe, but certain ones.

Scott McComb:
I would love to talk about different strands of conversation. Not just about Driving the CBus, but taking Driving the CBus as an impetus to have some conversations that have different threads, whether that's an industry thread, whether that's a local thread, maybe that's a national thread, maybe it's a nonprofit thread, who knows? Just some of the things that I'm involved with to be able to help the people that we associate with continue to grow their communities, and get the word out, and talk about their challenges, and their victories. That's our next step.

Scott McComb:
We're trying to … I think we figured out that we're going to take it not only to a business segment, where we're going to talk to our customers about their business; not about how they bank, but about their business, and challenges they have with their business, and successes, and what works, and what doesn't, that kind of thing …

Scott McComb:
As well as a more industry-focused piece that would be a different angle. That'd be maybe even a separate podcast, where we talk to industry experts, and service providers, and that kind of thing, just about what's happening in the business, and appeal to the banking community as a whole, on a national level.

Brett Johnson:
I think any way you can peel away some mysteries of what banks can do, whether it's the B2C, or the B2B, it's good. Again, this will time this podcast, but just with the school-admissions scandal. That stuff happens because there are so many layers of mystery.

Scott McComb:
That's right. That's right. Well, yeah, I don't know if we wanna get started on that. It was just nice to see the IRS, the FBI, and the Justice Department actually take some people down that are breaking the law. Not only breaking the law, but they're just dishonest. These are people that don't have to do it.

Brett Johnson:
That's what's the head-scratcher about it is-

Scott McComb:
It just is amazing-

Brett Johnson:
-that's exactly right.

Scott McComb:
I'm gonna ruin my life, and my kids' life, and everything else, just because I wanted them to have this status. They can buy status, right? They have [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
Yes, they can. For the amount of money that was being thrown around, they could have donated to get their kid in … Ultimately. Really.

Scott McComb:
Yeah, it's crazy.

Brett Johnson:
I think this forum helps bring back those layers that, then, you can understand the banking business.

Scott McComb:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
There are a lot of misconceptions about it, and I think podcast is a really good way-

Scott McComb:
Oh yeah.

Brett Johnson:
-to bring back saying, "You know what? I remember Scott talking about that on his podcast."

Scott McComb:
That's right. Well, you know what it's about? We find our customers, all the time, just don't understand the why. They need to understand the why. When we go to talk to folks about banking, and such, and so forth, we're not in … We're just not going to come back with a yes or no. I never want to come back with just … I fight that every day, as the bank gets bigger. Our culture is the most important thing to us, and to our board of directors. As soon as that changes, we're going to have issues. I'm not going to let that change.

Scott McComb:
We want to go, and tell customers how it can be a yes; not a no, but how it can be a yes, because they have to get that from someplace. They're not getting it from their accountants; they're not getting it from their suppliers, and everything else. They have to have somebody telling them, "Look, this is what has to happen for you to get to the next level."

Scott McComb:
Me giving them more money could be the nail in the coffin. That's really … I could kill somebody with a loan, just a company, with a loan, just as soon as we can help somebody with a loan. That's really what we want to try to provide folks. I think that the why behind banking is … It would be very, very revealing.

Scott McComb:
Right now, the history books are being written wrong about the financial disaster, for instance – how it occurred, what happened, the big bad [TARP]. That was just such a bad thing. All those are … That's all fiction. I lived it. I was going to Ohio State, after majoring in High Street. Remember, we talked about that earlier … All through that section, that would be a whole 'nother … We could do something on the financial disaster, with people that lived it, and say, "This is how the Big Short occurred," and it would be fascinating [cross talk] and it's not what you see on TV-

Brett Johnson:
You'll have a following for it; people love that stuff that was not covered properly. They love it.

Scott McComb:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
They love it. We're in a generation that that instant information is there, that you can google it up, and find what you hope is the truth, or at least differing views. Then, it's up to you to come up with the right stuff in your mind, whatever you wanna believe, yeah-

Scott McComb:
That's right. Getting it from the people who lived it, I think, is about the most real way you can get that information.

Brett Johnson:
Exactly. Exactly.

Brett Johnson:
In today's world, it seems like … In one of my podcasts, I was interviewing someone from the media. They'll remain nameless. Somebody does their homework, they can find out who it is. The fact of the matter is that person said to me … I said, "What do you think about what's going on in the media these days? What's happening to journalism?" He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I mean it seems to me like everybody … Everybody that has an interview has a preconceived notion, and they're asking questions to validify their preconceived notion." He said, "Oh, that's the way they teach … That's why they've teached journalism for the last 20 years."

Scott McComb:
What happened to reporting the facts? He says, "Well, that's not what it's about. Journalism is about developing an axiom, or a thought, or a theorem, and then proving the theorem through your questioning." I said, "That's not journalism. What happened to …?

Brett Johnson:
That's muckraking, ultimately, yeah, I guess-

Scott McComb:
Anyway, that's what he said, and I didn't want to queer the podcast, so I'm like, "Okay, we're not going to do that." We changed the topic, and went on to something else.

Brett Johnson:
That's interesting. Again, I think that's unique [inaudible] as a podcaster. You can go down a rabbit hole, which we're doing right now, which I have no problem with at all, because it validifies what this whole thing's all about.

Scott McComb:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
It's just interesting conversation. Find out more about you; find out more about … I want to listen this podcast, now. Scott sounds like a pretty good host. They must be pretty good. You've referenced a couple … That's the thing. That's what it's all about, as well as being a proponent, with my radio background, as well, too, it's just a really easy-access forum to talk to your future, or current customers, too.

Scott McComb:
That's right [cross talk] It's all about relationships. The world's about relationships. People want to do business with folks that they know, like, and have respect for, and can [cross talk] have trust. That's what it's all about.

Brett Johnson:
Well, thanks for being a part of the podcast. I really appreciate it. It's good to know you better, about where the podcast has been, and going. Our listeners at least can have an opportunity to know what to expect in the future, too, which is fun.

Scott McComb:
That's great. It's been a pleasure being here. I love your studio, everything that you've got here is great. Promoting, the whole basis of this podcast, was very interesting to me, because it really hit me as being, yeah, I would love to talk about that. I did it. It was easy. It was … It can open up doors for you. I appreciate being able to tell my story. Thanks very much.

Brett Johnson:
You bet. Thank you.

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Recorded in Studio C in the 511 Studios located in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.

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Brett Johnson:
Well, before we get into the nuts and bolts of the podcast, as I do with all my guests, I wanna ask both of you nonprofits that you support. Either one of you jump in at any time.

Aaron Jannetti:
There's two main ones that come to mind for us. One that's actually in the CrossFit world, specifically, which is of the things that we do is an organization that's actually called Barbells for Boobs. They essentially raise money to get just mammograms for ladies to be able to keep up on it, and get checked; especially the ones that either can't afford it, or don't have the insurance for it, or that. They've done amazing things with breast cancer. One of our very good friends, and actually lifts, right now, with Project Lift, Sherri [inaudible] was a survivor of breast cancer. They did a lot for her.

Aaron Jannetti:
I'm a chairman of the board for the Arnold Sports Festival for the CrossFit section, or the functional-fitness section. Last year, we had them out. They did a two-hour routine, did a couple of workouts, had a couple of survivors come out, and talk. We do a lot of fundraising for them. We help support Sherri in that. That's one of them.

Aaron Jannetti:
Then, the other one that we do annually … it's not-for-profit, but Nationwide Children's. Every year, we do a really big toy drive for them around the holidays for Christmas time. We put up a tree in the front; all of our members come in, and bring in things like that. Then we drop them off before the holidays.

Aaron Jannetti:
Those are two of our constants. There's been plenty we've supported over the years; everything from homeless, to dog shelters, to everything, but those are the two that we tend to support constantly.

Drew Dillon:
Yeah, those are our big constant ones. It's really cool that you bring up the question, because it's recently just been on my mind; been on my mind about … Actually, I think it was Tony Robbins finally smacked it into me, in just finishing one of his books recently.

Drew Dillon:
I thought it was interesting how he talked about giving, even when you didn't feel like you had enough to give, and the point of helping you create the feeling of abundance. If you can give 10 percent, even now, with whatever you have … One, you're gonna feel great about it, but, two, you're gonna feel that there's more out there. I really started to look … In addition to the ones that we've done over the years, because it always seems like ones pop up. Like, "Oh, here's this one. You wanna … Yeah, okay, we'll help."

Drew Dillon:
One thing, growing up, that really affected me was Boy Scouts. Just recently, I've started giving to Boy Scouts of America, just looking … I went, and did a little bit of research, and seen what they were still up to … I just love- I love the beginning of the pledge. "On my honor, I swear I'll do my best." You know what I mean?

Drew Dillon:
Again, I think working with individuals in strength and fitness, one of the things, watching kids grow up, if they can just understand … The commitment to do your best, whatever that is, is a great foundation. I just look at growing up … I didn't make Eagle Scout. I got out of Boy Scouts probably mid-teens right, but, even the time that I was in through, loved the experience I had.

Drew Dillon:
I think it's still funny is when people go, "Well, what does it really give you?" Here's one, right out of the gate, is watch someone try to move something, where they have to tie a knot. They have to secure something. They're like, "It's just like you can tie your shoes, right? What are you doing?" They're like, "Well, I don't I don't know …" and you come over, and you tie a slipknot, or you tie just a different knot, and they're, "How'd you know how to do that?" Boy Scouts.

Brett Johnson:
One good take away, that's for sure, exactly, yeah. I got to thinking, before I hit the record button … I hadn't put this in my notes, but if I don't do this right now, I'm gonna catch a lot of hell, if I don't say a big shout out to Dr. Rich Ulm-

Drew Dillon:
Oh, yeah.

Brett Johnson:
I know he's gonna listen to this episode, once it's published, and if I- when I see him next – there's not even an if – when I see him next, the next time I have problems, he may not even see me, if I don't- of we don't say something to him. He is the one that connected us to talk about your podcast. I've been seeing him for years, through our kids, as well as my wife, and myself.

Brett Johnson:
Every time I go in, it's about a podcast of some kind. We're talking podcasting, or radio, that sorta thing. I appreciate him connecting us, and getting me to know you guys better, about your podcast, as well, too …

Brett Johnson:
Let's do a little bit of background history between the two of you – where you started, and how you got here today, let's put it that way, with your professional background, your history, and the two businesses that you own, and how you're coming together.

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah. We technically own two different businesses, and yet, in the same regard, we help each other with those businesses, and both of the businesses thrive off each other. We're both located at one location, which is in Hilliard Ohio..

Aaron Jannetti:
I run Endeavor Defense and Fitness, along with two other business partners. Then, I'll let Drew talk about Project Lift, a little more, later, but he runs Project Lift. We're at the same facility. He's got his own area; we have our own area, but the overlap is phenomenal there..

Aaron Jannetti:
I started … I was introduced to originally Krav Maga – which is a self-defense system – in really early 2008. For me, I was a landscape architecture student at Ohio State, and I found this system at a time where I was out of money. I was paying my way through college. I had to take a quarter off. I wasn't in the best spot, let's just put it that way, mentally, psychologically, emotionally, anything there.

Aaron Jannetti:
I found this place; it was a good release. I'd done a little bit of martial arts as a kid. Pretty much just never left, to the point where I helped them open up a second location later on that year. I actually left Ohio State, and started working there full time, and that's pretty much been it from there.

Aaron Jannetti:
From that path, I was introduced to CrossFit, and then into more of the self-defense side of things, and then, eventually, weightlifting. I met Drew … The first time him and I met was actually at a [USAW] weightlifting certification. He was one of the lifters there that was helping out with the course. We talked, but not outside of, "I'm here to lift weights, and tell you when you suck," and, "I'm here to try not to suck …" out of that relationship.

Aaron Jannetti:
Eventually, through weightlifting, we ended up back in the same spot. The club he was with started lifting at our facility. Then, when he had an opportunity to open up his own club, he was like, "Hey, would you guys mind if we stayed here?" I was like, "Yes …" During that whole entire time, him and I have just naturally – from a business standpoint, life standpoint – we tend to just gravitate towards each other, challenge each other.

Aaron Jannetti:
We've learned a lot from each other. I wouldn't be where I'm at right now, with my business, if it wasn't for him, and I would like to think we've supported his relatively well. That's my background; that's how we, at least, came together. I'll let him talk about Project Lift, as he knows a lot more about that.

Drew Dillon:
Project Lift, like Aaron said, a separate entity. It's funny to hear Aaron started back in Krav Maga, around 2008. Around 2008 is when I got into Olympic lifting – weightlifting with the snatch, clean, and jerk competitions around that nature.

Drew Dillon:
At the time, I had graduated from Ohio State, and was getting off the ground, figuring it out. There was a natural draw to weightlifting for me. I found it fun; I found it exciting; I started to have some success in it. It was a really nice … In a way, maybe I could think of it as an escape, at times, from trying to cut my teeth, out in the world of figuring out, "Oh, what do I wanna do?" Whereas, at least I have this something over here, having some success with it.

Drew Dillon:
Like Aaron said, we met each other in a certification, first, but I first remember going, "Oh, man …" Our relationship growing a bit more was … It's funny that you'd brought up nonprofits … He was doing these once-a-month Friday cookout/workouts to raise money for a nonprofit of that month. It was whatever causes was going on. We were talking, and I'm a huge griller. I was one of the founding members of the Buckeye Barbecue Club at Ohio State, back in the day. Aaron's not much of a cooker …

Aaron Jannetti:
I can make a mean rib eye [cross talk] that's about the extent of it.

Drew Dillon:
We were talking about grilling, and he's like, "Man, I always wish I had somebody help me out with this cookout for these events." I was like, "Oh, man, I can cook." I came in to help grill, and watch this event, experience this event. I was like, "Man, this is really cool." I remember that being a moment, where I was like, "Yeah, this guy's somebody I'd like to get to know more," you know what I mean? Our relationship grew out of that. We just started to work more with each other, and it just continued to grow, and grow. Project Lift would definitely not be where it is today, without Aaron, and the support of Endeavor.

Brett Johnson:
Excellent. How did the conversation about a podcast begin? I love the set-up that you two are very complementary to each other, in regards to the businesses, as well as maybe even the outlook on life. You help support each other, and such. The podcast … Let's talk about how that conversation started.

Aaron Jannetti:
I think it works really well, because not only are we complementary, but we also will absolutely just tear each other apart [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
That's okay … Exactly.

Aaron Jannetti:
Was it two years ago [cross talk]

Drew Dillon:
We tried a little one. Yeah.

Aaron Jannetti:
We kinda tinkered around with it a while ago. Just through the concept of just content creation, in general … We've always done a lot of instructional videos, highlight videos, make sure there's images … We were just talking about this before we actually started recording, but it's the age of the internet. If you're going to be successful with a business, you have to have a presence. You have to accept social media, whether you like it or not, and then, you have to play that. We were making videos … It was just another opportunity to get some content out.

Aaron Jannetti:
The first go round we did with it, to be completely honest, I ordered a small little two-track Behringer off of Amazon, and we had essentially three mics. We used a blue, just the basic blue USB mic. Then we had two headsets.

Aaron Jannetti:
The original premise of it was we were interviewing people that were very, very knowledgeable, and had a lot of wisdom in certain areas, based in central Ohio. That was the shtick was everybody goes off to California, Texas, and all these other places to find powerlifting instruction, or nutrition, stuff like that. It was an opportunity to highlight, like there's a lot of this information locally. You don't have to go out of it, and so, to highlight some of those opportunities …

Aaron Jannetti:
We interviewed Sherri, who we were talking about earlier, with Barbells for Boobs. We interviewed Sean Clifton. He's a Purple Heart recipient. He was shot multiple times, during war, and his bounce back, and recovery into CrossFit. We interviewed a couple on nutrition. We had Joe Lasko, from Westside Barbell.

Aaron Jannetti:
It really was just … We had one or two questions set up for 'em, but it was more just a conversation: who are you? What's your background? Then, we'd ask a couple questions around it. We tinkered around with that for maybe eight episodes, or something like that. It was very loose, and it was … That kinda died off, more or less because I'm a little bit ADD. I'm all over the place. I don't know, it was probably September …?

Drew Dillon:
Something like that. I feel like, with the interviews, and even, I think, at times, we were so focused around stuff that related to the business, still, that … I don't know. I don't know whether it just got exhausting, or the interview part definitely made it more difficult [cross talk] right outta the gate.

Aaron Jannetti:
That kinda fell off. Again, we have multiple irons in multiple fires, at any point in time, so that fell by the wayside. Then, it was actually how this podcast came about is … It's kinda twofold.

Aaron Jannetti:
Drew and I, we usually get together, I don't know, once every four weeks, six weeks, where we would just get a cup of coffee, and just talk. What's going on with Project Lift? What issues are you running into? He would … What's going on with Endeavor? What do you got going on? Just talk about family, and everything that goes with that.

Aaron Jannetti:
One of our friends, his name's Rob Pincus, reached out to me, because he was thinking about starting an internet- essentially a radio station, or network, and he wanted us to host a show. He was actually the one that replanted that seed.

Aaron Jannetti:
We sat down, and the first couple questions were, okay, we tried this once. Is this feasible? If we are going to do it, what kind of a time commitment do we actually have? Then, if we are going to do, what that looked like.

Aaron Jannetti:
It started just morphing into to, idea-wise, what it is now, which is just let's just talk about all the stuff we normally talk about, which is how are we improving the business? How are we improving in life? What are the issues we're running into? It can pertain to entrepreneurship. It can pertain to weightlifting. It can pertain to self-defense. It might just pertain to bourbon … Whatever gets there.

Aaron Jannetti:
That's what jumped off, where we went with it. Eventually, the idea of the radio network died off, but, we were gung-ho, and we were pretty excited about it. I'm one of those dudes that when we're … If you wanna do something, I just do it [cross talk]

Aaron Jannetti:
I went down to the local music shop, bought a couple of Shure microphones; ordered a better version of the Behringer that holds on more tracks, so we can bring on other people, if we wanted to. Then we just-.

Drew Dillon:
Started.

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah. We just hashed out, and rolled.

Drew Dillon:
I think one thing, in reflection, between the podcast that we originally started with the interviews, and getting going … One, there wasn't much of that commitment. We were definitely dabbling. With the dabbling, we also, with the interviews, I think, set up a situation that is a bit more challenging, if you're just dabbling. There's gotta be stronger commitment there, if you're gonna be reaching out to people – more of a laid plan.

Drew Dillon:
One thing going into it, too, and I remember talking with Aaron, if we were just gonna talk about weightlifting, I don't know how long I could go. I think I would get a bit bored.

Drew Dillon:
It's funny, within the walls of Project Lift, although these athletes …. You typically find ones that are wanting to compete in the sport, that are in a sport, but wanna become better at their sport, utilizing the Olympic lifts to become more explosive, or they find the Olympic lifts intriguing, and just want to learn. They might stick their toe into a competition, and see what it's like …

Drew Dillon:
For anyone who hasn't done a snatch, or a clean and jerk, but has golfed, I think that's a really good connection. Think of the complexities of a golf swing. That is the same complexities put into two different movements. You see athletes spend their whole career competing in this sport …

Drew Dillon:
One thing within those walls, the conversations often come down to just improving at life. What's our foundation that's allowing us to train – consistently, healthy … All of these life conversations that Aaron and I will sit down, and have coffee with, or multiple times, are sitting down with clients, and having conversations with, and then, even other key individuals in our businesses.

Drew Dillon:
I think that's one thing that we've done pretty well is whether it's a partner, or a coach on my side, or a partner, or a coach on his side, we both are watching. I think it's really funny, when I catch one, and something comes up in a conversation, and I just throw a piece of advice at 'em, or challenge 'em on something. They're like, "Oh, that's kinda what Aaron said, but a different way to say it." It's like, "Yeah …"

Drew Dillon:
Then, also, texting each other, going, "Hey, man, what's up with so-and-so? They okay?" Just giving support, and going, "Aww, man, I think they're going through a hard time." That's the thing. I think a lot of people don't give credit to the foundation to allow yourself to be consistent at whatever you want to do. That's one thing that's been really fun about this podcast to talk about.

Aaron Jannetti:
The commitment thing was real big, because we actually sat down, and said if we are going to do this, we have to have a time slot. There's gotta be … It's on the calendar; we don't stir from it. That's just the way it is. That actually spurred …

Aaron Jannetti:
You talk about putting the studio together, and have a designated space. We did that. We had an area upstairs that we had originally intended to be a child watch for people that were coming in to take classes, and wanted to drop their kids off. For staffing reasons, insurance, and everything else, it just fell through.

Aaron Jannetti:
Then, we had this open spot that we had dropped five grand into, to have the walls built out, and all that. It actually ended up being great, because, like I said, we do a lot of media content, anyway, so, we turned it into a studio/pretty much our media room. All of our cameras are up there. We have a green screen. We have a wall that's all whiteboards. That allowed us to have that designated space, and people know, once I walk upstairs, and the door's shut … For us, we do it on Sundays, which the gym's closed anyway, but it works out really well.

Aaron Jannetti:
I think what's interesting is Drew and I are both at a spot right now, in the business, where we're both … Like he would say, we're working on the business, instead of working in the business as much. Whereas, when I started, I love teaching. I tell people all the time, if it was up to me, I would just teach, but to make a business successful, you've gotta step back, and you have to see all the pieces. Plus, I have a phenomenal, phenomenal team of instructors. If I'm taking up, and hogging all the classes, I'm not allowing them the opportunity to grow..

Aaron Jannetti:
A lot of the conversations we have, I've realized my role, if I'm gonna make the business more successful, is to make sure that the staff is more successful. All the conversations we're generally having are the same things that I dealt with, trying to figure out how to become a better instructor; how to become a better husband. Now, I have I have two children, so, how to become a better father; how to become a better business owner.

Aaron Jannetti:
It's allowing us an opportunity, where I'm going, "Well, instead of making you guys figure this out the way I figured it out, let's have a couple of conversations." That's been really fun, because the way that we do it, to be completely honest, we just … 15 minutes before we go upstairs, it's like, "What are we talking about today?" It just becomes a conversation, which is really nice, and allows us to go …

Aaron Jannetti:
I think the commitment of the time, and the space is what really brought it all together, but, really, just our background together, and the way that we can just have conversations, I think, is what really allowed us to bring it full swing. If it was if it was two people that didn't know each other, and we were forcing the conversation, I think it'd be a lot harder.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, I see a lot of the shout-outs in Facebook groups, "I need a co-host to do this, that, or the other," and it's like, "No … That's gonna be a failure." [cross talk] about five episodes … Isn't gonna work. Isn't gonna work at all.

Brett Johnson:
Really, it's probably very lucky that you had a failed initial attempt with podcasts, because I think a lot of podcasters go into this, like, "Interviews … Oh, interviews. That's a perfect … There are tons of people I can talk to [cross talk]" and such, but it does become a hassle, because you're also working with someone else's schedule to interview them. Granted, yes, there are a lot of people … I think your idea for interview makes a lot of sense, and still could implement that in what you're doing right now, but not as a total, I think, podcast-

Aaron Jannetti:
Right. That's all we had. That was … That was the premise of the podcast [cross talk] but you live, and you learn.

Brett Johnson:
Right, exactly. You live and learn. It would work, but at the same time, it wasn't enough energy for you to keep it going, as well, where now you're seeing you can walk in 15 minutes before a podcast, and you crank out a half hour [cross talk]

Aaron Jannetti:
We started trying to keep it at 20 or 30, and lately, man, we've been going an hour, just because the conversation's very natural.

Brett Johnson:
Why stop it? Exactly. If you feel that, and you're getting the feedback from your listeners, you never stop. Do not hit stop … You can always edit later on, but don't stop it. Exactly. As co-hosts, how do you handle duties, I guess you could say? What's your part; what's your part, in regards to putting the podcast together? Is it equal, or …? [cross talk]

Aaron Jannetti:
-you're looking at me. Right now, for the most part, we're doing a lot, but it's … We're still very minimal. We already have- Drew already has his outlets, and mailing lists, and content followers to Project Lift. We have the same through Endeavor, and what I do..

Aaron Jannetti:
Right now, designated time slots – we both are there; we both record; the equipment's already up there. Then, really, I've already got the templates. Right now, we're using just GarageBand. We keep it very simple. I've got the templates already put together, and it's pretty much drop …

Aaron Jannetti:
Again, I think it just- the way that we are, and the way that we talk, and even the way we talk with our clients, and things like that, it's just one take. We allow the screw-ups, and the blurbs that go in here, and let it be a more natural conversation, front to back. The entire editing process, once the soundcheck goes through, and it sounds good through the mics, is pretty much clip, clip, stick it [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
Makes it a whole lot of your session, doesn't it? It really does … Just allow it to happen; maybe occasional flub here, or there. Everybody has a brain fart, occasionally. You're just going to, but do you let it in or not? It's one personality. It happens in real life. Okay, we'll just let it happen.

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah, and again, I think that comes … The demographic, and what you're talking about is gonna matter, but the whole entire thing is about being able to make mistakes, getting better, and all that kinda stuff, so, I think it just fits.

Aaron Jannetti:
The editing process, if we're being completely honest, for me, is five minutes. That's me actually looking at it. Once I hit export to an MP3, it's pretty simple there. I do the edit; I drop it onto the page; do the show notes, which I like listening back to 'em anyway, so, I do the show notes. Then, I'm doing Instagram stuff. We're not doing a lot.

Aaron Jannetti:
When we start … I know we wanna start doing some mailing lists, and some other things that'll grow off on it. That's his territory. That's where he … He's better at the trickle campaigns, and understanding sales funnels, and leads, and things like that. I'm content-straightforward guy [cross talk] that goes-

Drew Dillon:
Great at content, though.

Aaron Jannetti:
I'm handling the Instagram, and Facebook stuff right now. He's gonna start doing the more … You talk about how it's gonna maybe benefit the business. That's gonna be more … I'm creating the presence. He's gonna take care of that.

Brett Johnson:
Let's dive into that a little bit … You're at the beginning stages of email, and newsletter, and Yelp marketing, and such. Talk about what's in your head; what you're thinking about doing to … As this is a piece of it.

Drew Dillon:
Right now, right outta the gate with Instagram, and the Facebook that Aaron's been doing, and even with our mailing list around members … Thinking of that, not even in the whole big span of the community around us, or the world – the benefit to the business – I found extremely interesting how many conversations it's brought up.

Drew Dillon:
Again, these conversations are typical conversations we're having with athletes and coaches about getting better. Now, it's this other outlet that's on their time frame. I don't have to sit down with them, at the desk, and schedule a meeting with them, or a call with them, and have this conversation. They can listen to it when they want and.

Drew Dillon:
Then, all the sudden, they're coming in, and bringing it up. From a business standpoint of helping the business, with the members that we have currently, it's continuing to help them solidify their foundation to be successful at training towards whatever their goal is. That's been instrumental.

Aaron Jannetti:
That's on both sides. That's …

Brett Johnson:
Wow.

Drew Dillon:
Yeah, that's been … It's interesting, because going into it, that wasn't necessarily my thought. My thought was a new audience; finding new people, and that. Right outta the gate, in these first … What are we? 11-12 episode live?

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah … Today we just released 11.

Drew Dillon:
That's out there, just the feedback from the members, and the audience we already have … Yu can feel it strengthening it. It was like, okay, that … I didn't expect that. That's really neat.

Drew Dillon:
Looking forward, or continuing, We played with the idea of a book club. Looking at what we're talking about, I'm an avid reader. Aaron's an avid reader. The more we just continued digging into that, that was our first … "Hey, okay, well, let's see if we can't create a group – an audience – around 'Hey, I'd like the habit of reading more,'" and giving them something that could cause- could put a little skin in the game on holding to that habit. We'll curate the books; we'll curate the conversation, and put something together. We're still with that.

Drew Dillon:
Even looking at our list, outside of what we currently have, like members currently in our facilities … Starting to get them more opportunities; get that out there. What I've been playing with, at the very beginning, is I'll write a bit; if you're familiar with Seth Godin, and his short style … It's almost like a thought.

Drew Dillon:
What I've been really playing with, recently, in the last few months, with the podcast, is one member asked me the other day, he goes, "When you write those little blurbs, who are you writing to?" The secret is I'm writing to myself … I'm not thinking of somebody else, actually; I'm typically thinking of me. When you have this problem, or when you have this challenge, or you've been struggling with this thought … I'm calling myself out.

Drew Dillon:
I think it's really interesting how many people have related to the language towards myself, but it's not towards anybody else. Continuing to do that around that the subject matter of the podcast, and then letting that be the tie in of, "You wanna take that deeper? Here's something you can listen to." That's been the seeds I've been playing with right now, looking at how we're gonna continue to trickle, and pull and maybe some other mediums, as well, that could work.

Brett Johnson:
Right. To me, it looks as though, and sounds as though the podcast, itself, is just an extension – as podcasts are – an extension of yourselves. You're already doing this in your facilities. You're talking to these folks; they're giving you feedback. They're willing to even download an episode, while they're working out, possibly, to get pumped up. At least, they're the weaknesses, that day, you helped fill a hole for them. It's like, "Wow, he hit the spot that day. That's what I needed."

Aaron Jannetti:
We've had a lot of those conversations. The one that cracks me up all the time is we'll have people that'll come in, and they'll be, "Yeah, I listen to your podcast. It's actually good." You look at 'em, and go, "Wow, thanks. I appreciate that your original thought was that this is gonna be terrible."

Brett Johnson:
Right. Exactly.

Aaron Jannetti:
"I'm glad you took the leap …" I think one of the things that's really important to us … Yes, we talk about this all the time, but, yes, we're a business. We have to make money. That's the way it is, but, we wanna do that through bringing you value. We want to [inaudible] actual trade off. I think one of the things that's super-important for us to understand, and I've looked at this a lot more over the last maybe four or five years, is that long game.

Aaron Jannetti:
We talked about this on one of the most recent episodes, but the concept of a reputation. What's the reputation of the business? You don't build that reputation in one year, or two years, or, honestly, even three, like a true-true-true reputation. What we've started figuring out is the last two years that we've been open, especially at Endeavor, and I know it's happening with Project Lift, because I even hear the conversations, but, we're getting a lot of, "Hey, I've heard about you," or, "Hey, I heard this about you," or, "Hey, I'm not happy with what's going on with the situation I have now, and for years, I've heard that this is the way you guys do things."

Aaron Jannetti:
To me, with having the podcast out there, and having it related [inaudible] is now, when they're listening to that, they're going, "Oh, wow. These guys …" First off, I know exactly what I'm getting into. If I walk into this place, this is not just the technical aspects of it, and things like that, but I know the mentorship, the leadership, the community that's coming out of this isn't superficial, and I think that's important, in and of itself.

Aaron Jannetti:
They can also look at it, and go, like, "Wow, I'm gonna go to this facility, and I'm not just getting physical fitness." The reality of it is we've talked about this before, but, to be physically fit, you really just have to be consistent. Yes, there's better and worse, but anybody can coach relatively well from a technical aspect.

Aaron Jannetti:
The difference is how are you building relationships with the athletes? How are you adjusting to not just their physical issues? We were talking about chiropractors, and tweaks … What's your mood today? You should adjust your program, and the way you approach a class, and the way you approach recovery, and rest not just based off of the physical aspects, and the physiological, but the psychological. Where's your emotional state?

Aaron Jannetti:
You might need two … CrossFit's real big on times. You're looking to hit faster lifts, and hit more weight, and do things faster. People get bogged down by that. It's a really, really good way to motivate people, and to push people, but they forget that, realistically, sometimes, it doesn't matter.

Aaron Jannetti:
Some people need psychological … You might be perfectly fine, physically, but you're breaking down because of these things … You need to lay off for a week or two, and take half the weight off the bar, or do half the reps; just do it for fun. Remember, this is a fun-type thing. I think they start realizing that that's the difference between …

Aaron Jannetti:
In our opinion, that's a difference between a good gym, and a great gym, or a good community, and a great community is that it's not … Anybody can show you how to do a clean and jerk relatively well. I say anybody with air quotes. The difference is what's the longevity – physically, emotionally, psychologically? How do I feel about the tribe that I'm surrounded with?

Aaron Jannetti:
I think the podcast is allowing that more and more. People are stunned to realize it's … This is a completely different experience that I'm about to walk into than what I perceived from watching 10 YouTube videos of people killing themselves, doing a snatch, or something along those lines.

Aaron Jannetti:
I've I found that interesting, over the last 11 weeks, where I'm getting conversations through my other templates; people that are coming in for outside seminars. I travel a lot, and I do security consultations, and community events around the concept of surviving an active-killer situation, which is … It's a terrible, and depressing thing to have to run around, and talk about, but I'm getting contacts through that, that are going, "Oh, man, I caught two or three episodes of your podcast, and it's amazing to hear you talk about these things, and the way you looked at it." It just changes. It helps build, again, that that reputation.

Aaron Jannetti:
I think, because we don't put a huge weight of planning, and a huge weight of following a certain structure, and we allow things to just go whatever's said, I think it allows that to … People start realizing it is actually genuine; we're not reading off of a list of stuff. These are just legitimate conversations.

Aaron Jannetti:
If you're looking at Endeavor, or you're looking at Project Lift – between all of the video content, we have the instructional material, we have the newsletters we put out, the articles that we write, and the podcast – you pretty much know exactly what you're getting before you ever had to walk through the door, if you wanted to take the time to actually research it. That's been a secondary benefit, which I think has been a really important one, because the conversations have been great inside the gym, but we've also- I've also gotten a lot of conversations from outside the gym.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, I can see where your podcast is that soft touch, and it allows them to be- you to be in their head, with their earbuds, at the time that they need your information, and such … I think a lot of businesses, and I've had consultations with businesses taking a look at what a podcast can, or can't do. They're looking at it as a quick fix, very quickly, and it's not.

Aaron Jannetti:
No.

Brett Johnson:
This is not a strong call-to-action type of medium, but over time, you'll win your listener over, because they need to learn you, as you go along. With exactly the tactic you're looking at … Let's just go in, and brainstorm 15 minutes, before we come on, but we know where we're going with it. Really, it just comes down to what's the topic this time, and do what we do outside of these four walls, anyway, and just bring it into the mic, and have fun.

Brett Johnson:
I think both of you coming together, listening to the episodes I have of yours, you're well-matched. You play off each other great. I think that's key to it, as well, too. Having a co-host is great, because I've done solo. I'm not great at solo; I'd rather do co-host, but you've got to find the right person to sit with you to do that. Match up schedule, as well as you don't want them to be necessarily a nodder, and say, "Yeah, I agree. I agree." No, you gotta add a little bit – a different life perspective, and such, too. Exactly..

Brett Johnson:
I wanna go back to that- the book club idea, which I love. I love the idea, and I think it's probably a little bit of why you went with Podbean, which is your platform you're using to support the podcast, or to disseminate, and such. How did that come about, initially? Was that right outta the shoot, "We're gonna do a book club. This makes sense. Let's go with the platform," or did it evolve into it?

Aaron Jannetti:
That was pretty much his idea.

Drew Dillon:
Yeah-.

Brett Johnson:
I love it.

Drew Dillon:
I think it was at the beginning of … What's something that relates that could add value, and let's try an idea – is there interest out there? With that goal … I think it's funny, too, at the time, a friend of ours, James Clear, had just released a book called Atomic Habits. I had just read that book; I know Aaron had just read that book, and just looking at-.

Aaron Jannetti:
Just to clarify, I listened-

Drew Dillon:
He listened to that [cross talk] That's true. The thing that was really just on our minds in the moment was looking at who we're helping. How can we provide some value around helping them start that habit? If you'd like to read more, if that's a goal of yours, then become part of this, and we can take you down that. Then, it was just a test; let's toss it out there, see if there's interest, and continue morphing off that.

Brett Johnson:
I think you're dealing with the same type of audience that, if you're willing to invest 30, 40, 50, an hour of their time with you, they probably are willing to spend that time with a book, too.

Yeah, and the one thing is, books … I know for a fact that books have completely changed the way I've approached business, life, relationships, and everything. Again, not every book is great, but we've … Between the two of us, we have a stable of books that I know that I can always go back to. I want to read through them again, and again, and again.

Aaron Jannetti:
One of the ones that always pops up for me is just Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I usually listen to that at least once a year. It was such an impact on my life, and I know for a fact, it's been …

Aaron Jannetti:
Books, and reading have been an impact on his life, so, I think it was a natural progression, anyway, because honestly, half of our episodes, we're always going, "We picked this up from this area, and this is who we got this from, and this is the book that we read.".

Aaron Jannetti:
What essentially we ended up doing was if we're going to one book a month, what do we think are the 12 most important books to get people along the way. Then, it's that journey, and track. The beautiful part of it, is it's really just turnkey for the listener, because it's … They pay 30 bucks a month, we ship the book directly to their house, and then, they have access to the episode, where we essentially put out an exclusive episode that only they get access to. It just breaks down what we took away from the book; not saying it's right, or wrong. It was just like what are the lessons that we picked up? How did it help us?

Aaron Jannetti:
It's also like a, for lack of a better term, a guide to navigate in the book: what are the things you should be looking for, and paying attention to? The one thing we tell them is, "You listen to this podcast, read the book, and then come back, and be like, "What did we miss?" because there's probably stuff that we missed; call us out on it.

Aaron Jannetti:
It allows not just the opportunity for them to get value, and not just an opportunity for them to learn, but we really want engagement. We don't want to just get on there, and be talking out, and everybody'd be like, "Oh, yeah, you guys are doing a great job." We want- what are your stories? You've challenged something we said. It's the only way that any of us learn.

Aaron Jannetti:
It's another opportunity for us to engage with them, as opposed to it just being a one-sided conversation, where they're just a fly on the wall, listening to Drew and I talk about our issues. We'd rather them be like, "Hey, have you guys ever thought about this?" or, "Hey, this is my story that related to that." Again, it just allows us a little more personal opportunity to do that.

Brett Johnson:
You have one of the more unusual names for podcasts. I do wanna … Obviously you can pick it up on the intro episode [cross talk] … We can go back to the intro episode, and you can understand exactly where he came from, but I wanna introduce that here, as well, too, in this podcast of talking about the title of your podcast. I'm not just gonna skirt by it. I think it's important because … I didn't bring it up initially, because I wanted the listener to hear where you're going with this podcast, and now bring it back home, going, "This is why we named it this way." Talk about that.

Aaron Jannetti:
I'll let you start that one off.

Drew Dillon:
When we first thought of names, it was a conversation at Stauf's. We were sitting there having a coffee. My goodness, I think I had just finished Seth Godin's marketing seminar; fantastic marketing seminar. Looking at a name that is unique, that, one, doesn't really have a bucket in the mind.

Brett Johnson:
It's almost code.

Drew Dillon:
Yeah, it's-.

Brett Johnson:
If you know it, you know us sorta thing, almost … Yeah.

Aaron Jannetti:
Pretty much.

Drew Dillon:
It's something that we can relate to; something we can own. Then, looking at, okay, what's this about? Our definition, our boiled-down, is "A little better each day." When you look at Kamiwaza as a name, and you look at the Japanese translation of godlike technique … Okay, the godlike technique, to us, is improvements every day. It's not perfection, but it's the pursuit of getting better each day.

Aaron Jannetti:
Don't get me wrong … Just like anybody else, we went through [cross talk]

Drew Dillon:
We had a few.

Aaron Jannetti:
-a stage of names.

Brett Johnson:
I bet. Sure.

Aaron Jannetti:
We were holding it, too, like he's talking about, out of that marketing seminar with Seth Godin … The little pieces of it, like does it pique interest? Is it something that, when you Google it, where does it stand. Is it gonna get flooded with 50 other things that you're gonna be battling against? Then, also, does it essentially, in the end of the world, embrace whatever it was?

Aaron Jannetti:
We came up with a couple that we were playing with, and just like everybody else … I'm pretty sure anytime, anybody names anything, they at least go back to Greek history, or Latin, in some form. We went through the Gordian Knot, and plays off of that, and some other things. It was interesting, because Seth Godin is a guy that that him and I both follow very well, and anybody smart that I follow, I have to admit, Drew has turned me onto them, in some form.

Aaron Jannetti:
He talks about Kamiwaza in several of his conversations, and videos, and several of his books. I remember that sticking out, and I think that we went down there, and then we did our history, or background check on it. It doesn't pop up. There's a video game from Sony from regular PlayStation, whatever. It wasn't successful but … It fit.

Aaron Jannetti:
Then, the more, and more, and more you look at it, it really does … The way that we look at everything is this in-depth "I wanna learn more, I wanna learn more; I wanna get better, I wanna get better." If I'm gonna do anything, I wanna be really good at it.

Brett Johnson:
Perfect. Well, again, that's why I left it til last, because I think what you said before lines up. It's like, "Oh, now I get it. Now I understand why it's called that …"

Aaron Jannetti:
It's also fun to have to say … The very first thing out of your mouth. I'm pretty sure I screwed it up on half the episodes.

Drew Dillon:
You actually self-corrected yourself in this last recording [cross talk] I think you said it right.

Aaron Jannetti:
-wait a minute. Is that right? Yeah, it's Kamiwaza [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
Let's talk about future plans for the podcast. As you mentioned, you're a dozen or so in, but that shouldn't stop you from thinking of what you're gonna do with number 100, that sorta thing. What are you thinking about?

Aaron Jannetti:
We're staying two ahead, at the moment. We released 11 this morning, but we recorded 13 last night. We're two ahead, and I would love to … I think we can both agree, we'd love to stay at least two ahead, if not more. Him and I do travel sometimes, and we get out, so there's one or two bumps in the road that are gonna come up, and we wanna make sure we stay ahead of that.

Aaron Jannetti:
I think the deeper we get into this … I think every time you get into a new project, you have to envision number 100, but the further, and further we get into it, I can see number 100 … We never run out of topics. Every week that we come in, and we say we want to talk about this one thing, but we have four others we wanted to talk to …

Aaron Jannetti:
I already have- I have a list of topics that I think is almost 23 long, and that's just starting. Then, the more conversations we have with instructors, and everything like that, they're asking questions. I'll go, "Well, that's an episode in itself." We've, in the middle of episodes, been like, "We could go down this road, but that's an episode in itself." We've got … I don't see the end of it coming any time soon.

Aaron Jannetti:
It plays off of what the podcast is, because it's continually improving. Heck, number 100 could be a review of episode number one, where we've changed our mind on five of the things we've done, or we've done something differently …

Aaron Jannetti:
In the long run, I don't think we've talked about completely long-term, like exactly what that looks like, but I would imagine it … Us just keep chipping away, and chiming, long as there aren't … We stay ahead, and we're both in the same location, it's relatively easy there. Maybe there's a five-week break here, and then a review of some other ones; maybe it changes down the road, and we're doing reviews of books, and other things that go …

Aaron Jannetti:
As far as that goes, I see 100. I see 200. I love Andy [Frisella], but, if he can make it to whatever, like 210, I feel like we can. .

Drew Dillon:
I just see continuing to grow an audience. Where our first thought was a new audience, and how the first 12 has really helped galvanize the audience that we currently have … Continuing to just get better at finding the new audience; getting in front of the new audience.

Drew Dillon:
I mentioned my buddy, James Clear before. One thing that I keep in mind – I think it'll help everybody listening – is James' book, "Atomic Habits," hit the New York bestsellers list. It's his first book. You think like, "Man, all right. Knocked it out of the park on his first one," [cross talk] Right?

Drew Dillon:
The thing is, he's been writing to an audience since 2011, I believe; 2011/2012. Now, when he started, before that, he's told me, "Oh, you know, I was actually writing a journal. I just got up the nerve to actually put it out there." He's writing, and he's writing, and all he did was make a goal of consistency. He goes, "I'll publish on Monday, and Thursday, every week, and I won't miss."

Drew Dillon:
He's doing that, and he's doing that, and he's doing that, and nothing's happening, nothing's happening, nothing's happening. It got to the point where he was kinda like, "Man, am I just wasting my time?" He said about eight months in, he goes boom … First one just went viral.

Drew Dillon:
At that point, and then on, I know he's really built up a good network of internet entrepreneurs, so he gets to see some of the behind-the-scenes of how are people's audiences growing, and whatnot. Within his networks. he realized he had one of the fastest-growing lists, in the sense of he grew to a quarter-million people following him within 14 months … Unheard of.

Drew Dillon:
In our discussion over coffee, as he's telling me, he goes, "Within the first eight months of nothing happening, what it taught me was, one, I'm the worst … We're the worst judges of our own work. What I thought was great biffed, and what I thought wasn't very good, took off … The other thing, too, looking at the eight months of me just shipping, I got better. When I first started, I wasn't that great of a writer. You might not … You're not a horrible writer. I was decent, I guess, but eight months in, I was a lot better than day one."

Drew Dillon:
His message, and we talk about consistency a lot, and looking at this podcast, is letting ourselves keep doing that. Holding on to the consistency, because by episode 50, episode 100, we're gonna be a lot better than we were at episode one.

Aaron Jannetti:
We already are … Even just in the basics of it, like understanding how to adjust the freakin' sound levels; what mics [cross talk] edited?

Brett Johnson:
Sure. Even having a conversation with yourselves, on mic, it totally changes it, once you have a mic in front of you, rather than a cup of coffee, because you you're recording.

Aaron Jannetti:
Oh, yeah.

Brett Johnson:
Without stepping on each other, without allowing the other person to finish their thought, but still hold your thought in your head, it's practice.

Aaron Jannetti:
Oh yeah [cross talk] You can tell that. I think we were two episodes in … I can't remember; it was two or three that we had released, and I literally sent him a text; I was like, "Dude, I talked for 20 straight minutes, and you didn't get a word in …" You build that awareness, and you understand that give and take. It's just- it's reps. It's reps and practice on everything. 50 in, we'll be that much better, and 100 in, we'll be that much better.

Drew Dillon:
I'm extremely confident in the subject matter. It can help that foundation … I find it really fun, because a lot of our conversations, I walk away thinking of something that we were talking about in a different way.

Drew Dillon:
That's, I think, the other interesting thing is we're talking about helping people build their foundation. When you're on a podcast, or when you're writing, at what point does someone give you that expert status, where it's like, "Oh, well, they're the subject-matter expert, because they're talking into a mic about it"?

Drew Dillon:
How often that stops us from getting in front of a mic, but then, also realizing that through this process, there's been a-has, and growth between us, of just going, like, "That went a route that I don't think I'd thought about before." It's growing ourselves, as well as hoping that the audience can take those lessons, and run with them, too, and just continuing to grow that community.

Aaron Jannetti:
Last night was a prime example of it. We went in … Last night's topic for episode 13 was sum cost. In my mind, again, the 15 minutes before we went up there, I had a completely different idea of how this episode was gonna go. We went five different ways, and where I'm going, that's not how I looked at sum cost. Holy crap, it's a completely different view. It now allows me to open up a pathway to see other things in a different light. It literally just was us hashing things out. He sees it different, I see it different, and we're able to actually talk back and forth about that.

Aaron Jannetti:
I know for a fact, I've learned over these 13 episodes, so it's … Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
You've gotten very lucky that you had your listening audience, your clients now, initially, give you feedback immediately.

Aaron Jannetti:
Oh, yeah.

Brett Johnson:
You're connecting with them. That's huge. Everyone that podcasts wants that, "Is somebody listening to this?" You can look at the download numbers; you can see that, yeah, I do see people are "listening," but the feedback is never usually there for a while. You got it pretty quickly, which is great.

Aaron Jannetti:
That's the thing that I that I think is interesting, too, because we see them face to face. Most of these conversations are taken face to face … They're not leaving a comment, or writing a message. It's when we see you face to face, we're gonna have this conversation. That makes me think, too, how many people have thought the same exact thoughts, but they just aren't gonna take the time to write it down; but they're not gonna see us face to face; they're not gonna have that conversation. If we didn't have that immediate feedback, face to face, I'm pretty sure half of the conversations we had, nobody would have ever written it on the board, would've never sent it through a message.

Aaron Jannetti:
That's an interesting point that I hadn't even really thought about, until you brought it up, where we are in that position, where people can go, "Hey, I listened to your podcast last night." If they don't say anything, I can call 'em out, and be like, "What'd you think?" [cross talk] look 'em in the eyes. "Really? Because you've been here for two years, and I know for a fact you needed that episode."

Brett Johnson:
Without calling you out in the podcast …

Aaron Jannetti:
"I was literally thinking about you while talking about this …"

Brett Johnson:
If you play it backwards, we'll say your name five times, right? Advice for a business owner walking into this idea of a podcast, especially in your industry. What's some advice you would give them?

Aaron Jannetti:
First thing I would say is just do it.

Drew Dillon:
Start.

Aaron Jannetti:
Really, that's the big thing. Again, to pull one from Seth Godin; in one of his books, he talks about set a deadline, and no matter what happens at the deadline, you send it; no matter how good it is, because we're pretty much our own worst enemies. That's a big one.

Aaron Jannetti:
Not to, again, just throw books out there, but, "The War of Art" is a fantastic book by Steven Pressfield. It's that. If you've thought for two seconds that you might enjoy the platform, or the medium of going over the mic, then just do it.

Aaron Jannetti:
Don't try to make it perfect. You don't need to spend five grand to set up a studio. Just sit down, and start talking. Then, you'll get good at that. You'll start getting good at the talking part … You might. You might find out it's not a good mix. You can always upgrade your mic. You can always upgrade your facility, and you can always get better at it. It doesn't need to be perfect. Just do it, and see what happens.

Aaron Jannetti:
I think that's a big lesson that … That applies to everything, but as far as talking to people directly about possibly doing podcasting, just do it. If it does awesome after six months, great. If you find yourself more tired by the idea, and you're not fueled by it, then, hey, at least you gave it a shot, but you have to give it a shot, and get it out there before you can ever make that decision.

Drew Dillon:
Yeah, and I think a lot of times, even when you do start, and create, it's six months down the line, if you're like, "Okay, this isn't the thing," I think what you've created will still add value, if you keep it on the website … A new client come in, and you look, and go, "Oh, man, okay, over the course of six months, I did 30 episodes, and honestly, I feel these five really could be valuable for someone new," when they sign up, send those five to 'em, like, "Hey, other members have found these valuable. You're welcome to listen." The only thing that could be happening there is you're galvanizing that relationship of media that you've already created.

Brett Johnson:
All right. What's the best place to find Kamiwaza?

Aaron Jannetti:
The web page, which is going to direct you pretty much directly to our Podbean site, but is Kamiwaza.co … KMI … KA … See, I'm screwing it up again. K-A-M-I-W-A-Z-A dot co. {kamiwaza.co). The podcast is on all your major outlets. It's on Spotify; it's on iTunes; it's on Google; it's on Podbean; it's on Stitcher. You can find it all there.

Brett Johnson:
If they're not going to either of your places, how can they reach you to give you a comment about, "Hey, this really touched me. Could you cover this?" What's a good way of getting a hold of you?

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah, for sure. On the Podbean site … I'm pretty sure it pushes off to everything else, but we do have all of our contact information. Stuff for Endeavor's on there; stuff for Project Lift is on there. You can always find me at … Well, pretty much online, JannettiAaron, pretty much on everything – Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. It's the same exact ID there. Aaron@EndeavorDCF.com is the email, if they wanna reach out to us directly, or reach out to me directly. They can also get a hold of the podcast directly at Kamiwazapodcast@gmail. That's a really easy way. Then Project Lift, as far as that goes?

Drew Dillon:
Yeah, we've got Project Lift. You can find … Unfortunately, on Instagram, and whatnot, it's a weird spelling; I think we had to leave out [cross talk] something, we had to leave out a letter-

Aaron Jannetti:
It's the E. It's like, P-R-O-J-C-T, or something like that-

Drew Dillon:
It's sad that I'm literally going, "I'm not sure which letter it is," because when I write it down, I pull out my phone, and look. I'm like, "Okay which one is it?" [cross talk]

Brett Johnson:
It's like your phone number – why do you have your phone number in your phone? You don't call yourself.

Drew Dillon:
Me, personally, drewdillon, all one word, on all the major outlets. I've been able to grab … Dillon is spelt with only one "I." D-I-L-L-O-N. A lot of people like to add an extra I, and then, like, "I can't find. What's wrong?" I'm like, "It's one "I"."

Aaron Jannetti:
They add letters to yours; they take letters off of mine. Yours, just to let you know-

Drew Dillon:
Thank you.

Aaron Jannetti:
-is missing the E, and has an underscore. It's P-R-O-J-C-T underscore Lift. (Projct_Lift). You're welcome.

Drew Dillon:
Thank you. That works.

Brett Johnson:
I'll have all those connections in the podcast show notes, too. I always like to give a verbal shout out, for the sake of … So it gets in your head twice, when you look around. Good.

Brett Johnson:
I appreciate you guys coming in to talk about this podcast. I, again, thank Dr. Richard Ulm, at Columbus Chiropractic, for putting us together, too-

Aaron Jannetti:
We have all of his acronyms right after his name …

Drew Dillon:
Who? The Alphabet?

Brett Johnson:
The Alphabet … He's Doctor Google [cross talk] No, I appreciate him connecting us, and I'll tell him a big thank you, next time I see him, which I'm sure will be soon. I might get injured doing something stupid. Anyway, good luck with the podcast. I know we'll connect up, again-

Aaron Jannetti:
Appreciate it. Thank you.

Brett Johnson:
-but, great interview, and I appreciate your insights on what you guys are doing with this … Actually a lot more in-depth than I was expecting. Again, you never know until you go through the interview. Like wow, yeah …

Brett Johnson:
Not that I don't expect people to put thought into the podcast. It's always interesting to see what thought was put into the podcast, because it's sometimes not that evident, listening. You don't know until you see a rhythm, until you see years [cross talk] what's going on with it. It's interesting that you have that deep of thought about this podcast, so early in, which I think will get you to episode 100, 150, 200 [cross talk]

Aaron Jannetti:
We'll have to come back at episode 100.

Brett Johnson:
That's gonna be on my calendar. I'm gonna keep a look at it [cross talk] That's another conversation I'm getting there.

Aaron Jannetti:
Yeah, all truth.

Brett Johnson:
It is, honestly. really is. It really is. Well, again, thanks. I appreciate it.

Aaron Jannetti:
Thanks for having us [

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In this episode I interview Drew Dillon, co-owner Project Lift, and Aaron Jannetti, co-owner Endeavor Defense & Fitness about their joint effort Kamiwaza Podcast.

So how to do two people who own two different businesses come together and produce a podcast that benefits both businesses? Listen to find out!

https://www.project-lift.org/
https://www.endeavordcf.com/
https://www.instagram.com/kamiwazapodcast/

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Networking Rx

In this episode, I interview Frank Agin, Founder and President of AmSpirit Business Connections, and host of the podcast Networking Rx.  Frank is putting in an extraordinary amount of time networking with his podcast. And his podcast has the unique flavor that it is designed to help him expand his AmSpirit Business franchise base.  

Not only does he produce a podcast that provides insight on networking, but it builds his branding for AmSpirit. He’s just a few months in, but he already knows this podcast will do what he set out for it to do.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios, located in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH!

Networking Rx (transcribed by Sonix)

Brett Johnson: As I do with every episode with Note to Future Me, I love to ask what nonprofit you’re supporting, or give time, talent, and treasure to?

Frank Agin: I don’t necessarily have one in particular that I give time to. About four years ago, I sat down … You’ll learn, as we talk more, I’m into networking. There’s lots of small businesses that I help to connect one another. I knew of a series of smaller not-for-profits, and I said, “What if I brought them together? What if I brought them together, and allowed them to learn about each other?”

Frank Agin: I told everyone who’s ever been there, who comes, I said, “You know what? I know what everyone’s number-one issue is – it’s money. None of you are gonna give up your money for the next guy, but let’s talk about all the other issues that you have. Let’s just put money aside. Let’s talk about all the other issues.” There are a ton of issues that are out there.

Frank Agin: This is called the Charitable Roundtable. We meet once a month, the second Friday of every month. I invite in any small not-for-profit. I invite small business people who wanna come in, and just learn about what’s going on out there. Volunteer, or whatever they can do to try and help that small not-for-profit community.

Frank Agin: That’s kinda my give to the charitable world. It’s something that I continue to try, and invest time, and a little bit of money every month … Putting a website up, and putting Facebook ads out there, just to attract other people.

Brett Johnson: I’ll put up a link in the show notes about it [cross talk]

Frank Agin: Okay, great.

Brett Johnson: -listening have an interest in it, sure, get a hold of you.

Frank Agin: Yeah, thank you.

Brett Johnson: Sounds good. Let’s talk about your professional background, and history, before we get into your podcast.

Frank Agin: Professional background: I moved to Columbus in 1984 to go to law school. I had no idea where Ohio State was. I had to ask some questions. Anyhow, I came here to go to law school. I got a law degree, and I got an MBA from Ohio State. Finished up there in 1988.

Frank Agin: From there, I started in a really big firm. I was with a public accounting firm; I was a tax consultant. I tell people I hated every minute of it, except for the 26 days a year I got paid. It was a good place to work, but the type of work wasn’t really for me.

Frank Agin: After about six-and-a-half years, I decided to leave, and go into private practice. I tell people a funny thing happened to me, when I went into private practice, and the funny thing was that nothing happened. I started my career with a really large firm, and that really large firm just gives you work. When you’re in small business, you gotta go, and hunt it yourself, and I had no idea how to do that.

Frank Agin: Through a series of introductions, I was introduced to a concept … A concept of an organization was based out of Pittsburgh. They brought together entrepreneurs, sales reps, and professionals into a weekly meeting setting, where the people learned about each other, and they exchange referrals. Thought it was neat. Didn’t think twice about it. I joined. Did very well through it; got lots of referrals; could help lots of businesses. Make a long story short, at one point, I had an opportunity … I bought it. That was back- dating back to 2004.

Frank Agin: I don’t practice law anymore, and I’ve just pretty much … The name of the organization is AmSpirit Business Connections. ‘Am’ is short for American spirit. That’s what I do. I spend my days working with small businesses, certainly here in Columbus, but I have a series of franchisees growing throughout the country, as well.

Brett Johnson: Why a podcast?

Frank Agin: About a year ago, the notion was put on my radar. I’ve written a number of books. I think I’ve written 10 different books on professional networking. I do a lot of speaking – professional, and public speaking – on networking; written a lot of articles. Somebody said, “Hey, you oughta think about a podcast. This is another way to get content out there.” I, right away, dismissed it as , “Okay …” I don’t understand it. There’s so many moving parts to this. I’m so busy.

Frank Agin: Then, over the summer, I was working with a gentleman, and he was … As I try, and franchise this, he was trying to get me to do what they term a ‘sales funnel.’ “Hey, listen in, and if you … Next week, we’ll talk about this.” Just continually pulling people along, and teasing, and teasing, and teasing.

Frank Agin: We were taping that, and one of the episodes, or one of the segments didn’t tape well, and we needed to retape it. He wanted me to just do it on my computer, and send it to him. I thought about it overnight, and it just didn’t feel right. I called him the next day. I said. “You know what? I don’t wanna do this. It just doesn’t feel right. It feels like a cheap sales ploy,” is what it felt like.

Frank Agin: I said, “What I really would like to do is I have so many thoughts and ideas on professional networking; things that I could share to help people become more successful.” He says, “Well, what you’re talking about’s a podcast.” Well, I guess I am. I said, “Give me a month.” I was coming up on vacation, and it’s a busy time. “Give me a month, and I’ll put together an outline.”

Frank Agin: I did, and came back to him with it. I said this is what I sorta wanna do. He really didn’t offer a whole lot of help, with respect to the nuts and bolts. I was very fortunate, because this was happening over the summertime. My daughter, who’s a communication major at Denison University, was interning with me. I just asked her. I said, “Hey, Logan, could you get me a checklist of all the things we need to do to put a podcast together?” She did, and we just started picking through things one at a time, one at a time, one at a time.

Frank Agin: The hardest thing is just coming up with content; not the hardest thing … I got plenty of content, but it’s just deciding what order do I talk about it all-

Brett Johnson: The strategy [cross talk] the content.

Frank Agin: Yeah …

Brett Johnson: Exactly, and that’s a good problem to have, though.

Frank Agin: Oh, it is.

Brett Johnson: The reverse is horrible – not to have anything to talk about, but you need to have a podcast.

Frank Agin: Well, I’m sure there are lots of people out there, get started in podcasting, and get to episode nine, and they’re, “Well, I really have nothing else to say.”

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: For me, it’s I want to limit myself to … I could do it every day, but that’s not the business. It’s just- it supports the business, so I kinda have to stop myself, week to week.

Brett Johnson: Right. What factors were discussed in measuring the success, or failure of the podcast, as you began?

Frank Agin: I decided, when I was gonna- when I started … I know some really connected people out there, and my initial thought was I’m going to go to them, and get them on my podcast, because then that’ll get me an audience right away. I thought about it. It’s like, you know what? I bet everybody does that. “Hey, I’m gonna have a podcast. I’m gonna get Person X on, and that’ll change my world.”

I said, “No, I’m not gonna do that.” I’m gonna come to them with 100 episodes under my belt, and I’m gonna come to them, and say, “You know what? I have a podcast. I’ve been doing a podcast. I’ve been doing 100 episodes, or 99; I want you to be number 100.” To me, that seemed to be more genuine.

Frank Agin: I do measure. I do look at the number of downloads, month to month, and see what’s being downloaded, and what’s working, and what’s not working, but I try not to put too much into that, because if you have a bad month – the downloads aren’t going up, or you’re not getting as much – I just …

Frank Agin: I think this is true of anything, in any business; you just need to be consistent. You need to be true to what you’re doing. That’s, for the most part, where success comes from, not just in podcasting, but really in business. You just have to get out there. You have to do things, and you have to stick with it. That’s my game plan is I’m just gonna keep providing great content, and just give it time.

Brett Johnson: From what I’m seeing, and feeling myself, that’s pretty much the best game plan is the long tail of it … Anything you do takes time, and you’re gonna get better at it, and you’re going to find what topics are best, over time; what resonates. Some are not gonna be home runs at all, of course, but the next one will be.

Frank Agin: Right.

Brett Johnson: Just like making calls for sales. That one didn’t say yes to it, but the next one will. It’s that positive attitude of you’re gonna get better; you’re gonna get better.

Frank Agin: Yeah, well, that’s exactly it. You get feedback from people, who say, “I really like that. I love the stories you tell.” Okay, I need to do more of that.

Brett Johnson: Right. There you go.

Frank Agin: I share with people that the first episode I did … Well, the first one was me just talking about myself, and what my plans were, but the first real episode I did, and these are 20-minute episodes, at best … That’s what I want my length to be, the total length. Took me eight hours to record. I wanted to cry. I really wanted to cry, because … If this is gonna be a weekly thing, I don’t have eight hours every week.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: Now I’ve gotten down to the point where a 20-minute episode, I can get done in easily 30 minutes.

Brett Johnson: There you go. Right.

Frank Agin: We get better at it, in time.

Brett Johnson: Exactly. The self-critique goes lower, and lower, and you just get better. The intros are better; the segues are better; you know what you’re doing … You critique less, I think, because … I always have that problem. Either stop doing it, or quit dwelling on it.

Frank Agin: Right. Exactly.

Brett Johnson: Find out how to get rid of the problem. You have a mix of solo, and interview format. Is that on purpose? By accident?

Frank Agin: To be honest, when I started, it was gonna be nothing but me sharing the content from my various books, and the stories, and experiences I had. As I indicated, I franchise, so I have groups of people in my organization all around the United States.

Frank Agin: I had somebody reach out to me, and say, “Have you thought about doing interviews?” My initial reaction was, “Aww, this is self-serving. This guy wants to be on …” Rolling my eyes. I shared these things with him. After the fact, I said I didn’t really think this was a good idea. He came back, and he said, “No, think about it.” So, I did, which is, I think, a … There’s a lesson in there, that people hit us with ideas. It may not be that idea, but there’s something there.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: He said, “You know, when you get people on, you’re gonna expand your audience.” Like, “Oh, geez, you’re right,” and that’s what I found. That’s how I stumbled into it, and it created a new issue of, okay, now, I gotta find guests.

Brett Johnson: Right … I think the adage is if you’re going solo, you’re branding yourself. If you’re interviewing, you’re networking. You don’t really have the opportunity to brand yourself in an interview. There are benefits to both. It just depends on what you wanted to accomplish. You’re right, watching out who’s approaching you, and why do they wanna be on your podcast, filtering that out, without …

Brett Johnson: Again, you can always hit delete, and it never gets aired in your stream, which is the benefit of podcasting, which is great, yeah … You are doing some interviews. How do you go about interviewing- I should say, putting the schedule together to interview? .

Frank Agin: I’m struggling with that right now. I wish I had a great answer for that. I had a flurry of people right out of the gate that wanted to be interviewed, and I’ve got more people lined up, but trying to mix it all in with the regular content … Generally, what I’ve done is Tuesdays, the regular content is coming out. Thursday, I will put an interview out.

Frank Agin: Am I doing interviews every week? Probably not, but, I have for the past six or seven weeks, and I’ll probably continue that for maybe another six or seven weeks. By the time that’s done, I might have another six or seven. I don’t know.

Frank Agin: To a degree, interviews are easier, because they’re not … You don’t have to put the planning in upfront; we just talk. To a degree, they’re a little more difficult, because you have to really put a little more time into editing, after the fact. When I’m doing an episode, where I’m providing value, if there’s something I’ve said that doesn’t come out well, I’ll stop, and rerecord it, so there’s less editing later. Okay, it’s done. I’m comfortable with it.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: There’s less planning on the front end, and I don’t have to worry about it.

Brett Johnson: Right. How is the podcast allowing you, and, of course, AmSpirit Business Connections to showcase your expertise? How did you plan for that to happen?

Frank Agin: Well, a number of ways. Like I said, I’ve written a number of books on professional networking. My take on professional networking is less about techniques, and skills – although that comes in a little bit. It’s really about habits, and attitudes, and how people need to be conducting themselves.

Frank Agin: For example, one of the recent podcasts I taped had to do with our relationships. I analogized it to dealing with Earthbound objects, meteors that are coming towards Earth. Sounds crazy, but there’s two rules … There’s two thoughts on that.

Frank Agin: One thought is that you just go up there … This is the Hollywood approach. You just go up there, and you blow it outta the sky. The problem with that is that you have all this fallout still coming towards Earth. Instead of one big rock, you’ve got 100 rocks coming at Earth. The NASA approach would be to go up to that object, and just gently nudge it; gently nudge it out of the path of Earth.

Frank Agin: I analogized that to our relationships. We all have relationships that are not perfect – even marital relationships aren’t perfect … I analogized it to those relationships that are really detrimental, and you have two approaches. You can have the Hollywood approach, and you can just blow it up, in which case, then you have all the fallout to deal with. Or, you can just kinda gently nudge it; gently nudge that person to be better behaved; gently nudge that person out of your life.

Frank Agin: That’s just kind of a way of … That’s a message that’s really geared towards anybody out there. That’s part of the podcast. The other part of the podcast; the other reason I did the podcast is there’s a lot of things that I do, with respect to training the members of my organization. Locally, I see a lot of these people, so I can actually talk to them.

Frank Agin: I’ve got a growing number of franchises out there, and I want to be able to get these messages out. In each chapter meeting of our organization, we have a segment that’s 20 minutes long for a member to give a presentation. In lieu of giving a presentation, I want to be able to provide them with content. “Here’s Frank talking about this particular concept: The ABCs of asking for referrals,” or whatever it might be. That was the other thought in mind. Again, it’s all about repurposing, recycling-

Brett Johnson: You’re doing that right now. Are you creating a content for …?

Frank Agin: Yes.

Brett Johnson: Okay. How are you delivering that to them?

Frank Agin: It’s just going up on the podcast.

Brett Johnson: Is it? Straight on the podcast. Okay.

Frank Agin: Yep, straight on the-

Brett Johnson: Not a private-channel thing [inaudible] a sign-in … Wow. Okay.

Frank Agin: A lot of it, I really geared towards anybody, but I’ll let the franchisees know, “Hey, this is an episode that you can deliver. It’s just like me talking; me doing the program.”

Brett Johnson: Interesting. Okay … I think a lot of businesses miss that aspect, that this is a communication opportunity to affiliates that may be across the country, or offices that are across the country; that whether it’s a public podcast, or a private-channel podcast, at least it’s a message that’s out there, disseminated, that your sales force can listen to it in the car, on their next stop to their next call.

Brett Johnson: I think they’re starting to learn this opportunity, but again, it’s one of those, “Oh, I didn’t know you could do that. I thought a podcast was just for the general public.” Not necessarily. It’s an opportunity to talk to who you want to talk to, on their terms, very easily.

Frank Agin: Yep.

Brett Johnson: Has this podcast, in the amount of time you’ve done it, lead to … Has it led to new business referrals, do you think, yet? Have you felt that feedback?

Frank Agin: I can’t say that it has. I can’t say that it has, and I’ve really only been doing it … Started September of 2018, and I think-

Brett Johnson: That’s a short term to figure that out, and to feel that love. Let’s put it that way [cross talk]

Frank Agin: -I’m selling a franchise that’s … It’s not cheap to buy a franchise.

Brett Johnson: Sure, sure.

Frank Agin: But it is really opening a lot of doors for me. For example, I have one coming out this week; I interviewed a guy in Finland. We had connected online, through LinkedIn, or something like that, and we were just talking. Here’s a vehicle where I can learn about him; he can share what he has. It provides content for me. He’s got 20,000 LinkedIn connections, and he’s gonna promote me. I don’t know where that goes.

Brett Johnson: Sure.

Frank Agin: I don’t know where that goes-.

Brett Johnson: But it’s an opportunity you can’t not take.

Frank Agin: Right-.

Brett Johnson: Technically, how did you do that? How did you do the interview?

Frank Agin: We did it via Zoom. I’ve been using Zoom. That’s something that, just in researching this whole thing … Some people say Skype, or Zoom. I just became very comfortable with Zoom, so that’s how we did it.

Brett Johnson: Good, okay. Marketing the podcast, your publishing schedule – every week.

Frank Agin: Yes.

Brett Johnson: Then, mixing in some interviews, as well, when available; so, a couple times a week. Social-media strategy – what are you doing to organically help awareness of the podcast?

Frank Agin: When episodes release, I will put a post up. Maybe I’m not terribly anal, as far as podcasters go, but I think, compared to the general public, it’s kind of anal … When I produce a podcast, I have an Excel spreadsheet. It’s like, “Okay, this is going in here. Here’s the title, and here’s the length, and here’s what … Am I using a short intro, or a long intro? What’s the outro?” One of the things I do put in most podcasts is I’ll put a little plug for our franchising opportunity. Well, which one am I using, so I can keep track of that. I’ll write up a description, at that point in time.

Frank Agin: From there, we populate a Google calendar, so, when the podcasts release, I’ve got all the information I need, and I can just go, and copy from that Google calendar, and then paste on LinkedIn, on my profile, and then various groups that I’m involved with. Same thing, with respect to Facebook. Then people will share that out, and that’s how it’s going.

Frank Agin: Depending upon who the person I’m interviewing, I might make a personal plea to a particular group. For example, if it’s somebody within AmSpirit Business Connections, I will … For example, the first person I interviewed was in Pittsburgh. I sent an email to all the members in Pittsburgh, saying, “Hey, I’ve interviewed Dr. Bulow. You might wanna listen to this podcast.”

Brett Johnson: You’re tracking, and you’re also putting some call to action, as well, in each episode. What is the call to action? Is it an email to you? A phone call to you? How are you putting that in?

Frank Agin: I do ask people for comments. Generally speaking, I don’t know that that’s the best strategy, because if you stop, and think about it, most people, when they’re listening to a podcast, they’re probably in a car, or they’re probably on a treadmill. That’s the feedback I’m getting. “Hey, I really love your podcast. I get up in the morning, and one day a week, I’m able to listen to it on the treadmill,” or a drive in the car.

Frank Agin: I do get emails from people with questions. “Hey, you talk about … You talked about this, but what does that mean?” Right away, I know I’ve assumed too much knowledge, and then I’ll get on a future podcast- I’ll insert something in, and refer back, and say, “In Episode 12, I talked about this. Let me elaborate a little bit.”.

Brett Johnson: That’s fantastic feedback. That’s golden.

Frank Agin: It is. Oh, it is.

Brett Johnson: It’s golden.

Frank Agin: We talk about running out of material. I don’t know that you ever run out of material. There’s always something there. There’s always something there …

Brett Johnson: Right. There’s always a question about what you’ve put in play already.

Frank Agin: Right, yeah.

Brett Johnson: It’s allowing that listener, the listener base, to have access to you. You know you’ll respond in an efficient way, as well as, “Here are the many ways you can reach me. Let’s do this.”

Frank Agin: Right.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, good. Sharing of episodes from the guests – have you got a game plan? What do you give them to help you promote? For example, the gentleman you spoke to in Finland, what are you giving him to help you?

Frank Agin: Yeah, that’s a good question. I have a, call it, a white paper. It’s two or three pages, just talking about, “Okay, here are the topics we’re gonna touch on. Here’s how it’s gonna go; you’re gonna have an opportunity to introduce yourself … The podcast is Networking Rx. It’s all about networking, so, I’m gonna address questions on networking. What’s your pet peeve? What are some challenges you face? What advice would you give to a younger version of yourself?”

Frank Agin: Then, I have a list of 10 or 12 other questions that they will pick from ahead of time. We weave that in, in a very natural approach. They have that all ahead of time, which people appreciate. Some people never look at it, but that’s fine, too. At least it gives me a game plan, as to what I want to do, as opposed to just getting somebody on, and “Okay, let’s talk.”

Brett Johnson: Sure. After the episode is done, then do you offer any links, any audio links, that sorta thing, to help them promote it as well, that they were on the podcast?

Frank Agin: I do. We promote up to Libsyn, so we get a link from them that I will share with them, as we get closer. Some of them try to access it ahead of time, but Tuesday, 6:00 a.m., it releases; nothing’s there before then.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, exactly.

Frank Agin: Sometimes, they don’t listen to what I have to say. “Hey, it’s not there!” No, it’s not supposed to be there.

Brett Johnson: Right. Exactly.

Frank Agin: We’ll have them share that out.

Brett Johnson: You spoke of Libsyn. You did some homework, obviously; your daughter did.

Frank Agin: Yep.

Brett Johnson: Why did you both decide upon Libsyn as a platform?

Frank Agin: I don’t know. I really can’t remember the exact reasoning why. There were a couple out there; Libsyn was one of them. One of the things that she had me do … There was a webinar on podcasting every week that would have something: Here’s how you name your podcast; here’s this; here’s the equipment you should have. Every week, there was a little bit of something. Libsyn was on our list, and that was one of the two things that this particular person had mentioned, so, we’re like, “Okay, let’s just go with that.”

Brett Johnson: There is no wrong answer to that. Each platform has its specific nuances; some a bit better than others, but it all depends on where you’re coming from, and what you need that platform to do for you, and your website, and your business. They’re all equally pretty darned good.

Frank Agin: Yeah, yeah-

Brett Johnson: At least the major ones that have been in play for the past 8, to 10, to 12 years. They’re pretty solid. They’re being certified. You can guarantee that the numbers you’re seeing are true numbers.

Frank Agin: For us, it was relatively inexpensive. On a monthly basis, I think it’s $15. When you’re starting out podcasting, and it’s just- it’s not your business per se – it’s just something you’ve added on to your business – you don’t want to invest a ton up front. I figured, okay, 15 bucks … Three months from now, if this isn’t working out, I can bail on it, and I’m really not out a whole lot.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: You’re right. They give a ton of value for that, and it’s worked out.

Brett Johnson: Good. The equipment you’re using to record the podcast, let’s talk about that.

Frank Agin: I generally do it right on my computer. I have bought Blue Yetis; got a couple of Blue Yetis as microphones that I use. They’re not the best, but pretty good, from what I can tell. Again, there was some research done on the front end, listening this webinar, and kinda looking out there.

Frank Agin: Yeah, it’s generally done on my computer, using Audacity. If I’m using Zoom, then I’ll need to take that file, and I’ll need to convert it to an MP3, and then, import it into Audacity, and edit from there. That’s really pretty much it.

Brett Johnson: The learning curve to use Audacity – hard? Easy for you?

Frank Agin: Well, I cheated, because I had my daughter; she pretty much gave me a cheat sheet [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: You jumped into it, and did … Even with a cheat sheet, pretty easy?

Frank Agin: Oh, yeah. Very, very easy. There are times where I might need to text her, and say, “Hey, wait a minute, I’m stuck here. This happened. What do I do?” I think, to a degree, I’m impatient. I’m just so busy with so many other things in my life, in my business, that I didn’t really have time to climb the learning curve, so she really helped me up it. I’m sure there are lots of things, with respect to Audacity, or Zoom, or any of these things – Libsyn – that I’m not taking advantage of. I figure, in time, I will, but it was enough … I know enough that I can-.

Brett Johnson: Put out a good product.

Frank Agin: Right.

Brett Johnson: Yeah … I think that’s with everything that we buy. Buy a new car. There are a lot of things on your new car, you don’t use for a year.

Frank Agin: Right. If ever. It’s like a computer.

Brett Johnson: You just don’t. Exactly. Future plans for the podcast? Where are you going with this?

Frank Agin: Where it takes me, I guess. I just plan on continuing to put episodes out. As I indicated, I wanted to get to 100 episodes, and then really try, and explore some of these-.

Brett Johnson: Quite frankly, that’s a really good goal. I think that’s very smart. If nothing else, because then, you’ll have at least 50 weeks in; looking at twice a week, even more than that. I think a lot of people jump in it the wrong way, and you’re looking at it the right way. Get some in. Then, that way, when your guest looks at what you’re doing, “Oh, he’s 100 in. Yeah, he knows what he’s doing. He’s not trying to build off of my …”.

Frank Agin: Exactly.

Brett Johnson: “… my network to build him up. He’s actually adding some value to my world, as well.” That’s a good idea.

Frank Agin: Right. Early on, when I was researching all of this, I had a conversation with a gentleman, who was looking to put together a company producing podcasts. He didn’t have a podcast himself, but he knew one of the people that I was thinking of approaching. He said, “Yeah, I approached him. He told me no unless I had a million downloads.” I know the person well enough to know that that’s probably not what they were saying. They probably said that, but what they meant is, “I’m not gonna be your first episode. I’ll be somewhere down the line.”

Brett Johnson: Right.

Frank Agin: I think that’s fair. I think that’s-.

Brett Johnson: Oh, for sure, it is, exactly. I think it becomes you’re then working with a seasoned podcast. They’re gonna ask better questions. They’re not going to be listening to other podcasts, and go, “Oh, that’s a good question. I need to ask him that.” What they’re looking for is what makes you different, that you’re gonna ask a better question than anybody else has that adds value to me, adds value to you, holistically.

Brett Johnson: There are a lot of new podcasters that are looking at it that way, say, “I can nail a couple two or three great interviews, and I’ll be right there, up at the top.” That isn’t how it works. Maybe 5, 6, 10 years ago, maybe, because of the lack of number of podcasts, but now, that’s a very difficult road to drive.

Frank Agin: Right. I just tend to put – back to your question – I just tend to put blinders on. I’m gonna put out good material. There are people out there who … Not everybody is gonna listen to every episode, but every episode, somebody’s gonna listen to, and somebody’s gonna get something out of. From that standpoint, alone, it’s my duty to try and get the information out. There might be one podcast I put out that only one person listens to, and that changes their world. It’s a success, so I’m-

Brett Johnson: Sure, yeah. That’s probably the most realistic way of doing this is affecting one person at a time, because those one persons add up very quickly, over time, as networking does, too. Back to your core of what networking does.

Frank Agin: Right. Absolutely, yeah.

Brett Johnson: Advice for business owners considering podcasting as a marketing tool: what would be the first steps that you learned from, that you should have done, or that, “Hey, I’m glad I did this”?

Frank Agin: I think the first step that anybody needs to do is take a hard look at what kinda content do I have? Just hearing yourself talk is not a good reason to have a podcast. What kind of value can you add? I call it Trojan Horse marketing, where what a podcast allows you to do is just …

Frank Agin: I guess what a Trojan Horse is, essentially… Back in the day, the Greeks couldn’t break into the city of Troy, so they gave the city of Troy a wooden horse, and hidden inside the wooden horse were these elite warriors. In the middle of night, they got out, and took down the city, and opened the gate, and that’s how the Greeks got in.

Frank Agin: That’s how I look at podcasting. Podcasting is that way that you can get out there, and get through the gates of the people you’re trying to talk to. They know you’re out there; they know you’re real; they know you provide value. That’s gonna open doors for you. Whereas calling, literally, their gatekeeper, and saying, “Hey, I’d like to talk to the CEO, or I’d like to talk to this person,” that’s just not effective anymore.

Frank Agin: Thinking about what’s my game plan? … You have to have a purpose. It’s like anything. If you don’t have that purpose, you’re not gonna follow through with it. It’s not gonna change your world overnight. It likely won’t. I can’t say that for sure, but if you go in thinking, “If I put out 10 episodes, I’ll pick up a client,” you’re doing for the wrong reason.

Brett Johnson: Well, thanks for being a guest on Note to Future Me. I really appreciate it. This has been this insightful, on your take on why to do podcasting for a networking company, which is great; which is pretty much what podcasting can be.

Frank Agin: Absolutely.

Brett Johnson: You’re right in the zone for what a podcast can actually do for a business, and you’re in networking. It’s a perfect match.

Frank Agin: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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