Broadcasters Meet Podcasters?

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Brett:
As you know, Marty, Broadcasters Meet Podcasters, a track this year at Podcast Movement '19.

Marty:
Yeah, hallelujah. Finally.

Brett:
Three years, hallelujah. No, but three years in a row, Jacobs Media has presented this track at Podcast Movement. Podcast Movement is coming up for 2019 in Orlando, middle of August. I think it's pretty much the start of hurricane season. Yay!

Marty:
It's beautiful that time of year.

Brett:
Oh, yeah. But it's a conference track that Podcast Movement has expanded on, and Jacobs has really, actually, done a pretty good job of bringing it along. I think, giving more focus for broadcasters to take a look at podcasting.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think there's been any organization as active as Jacobs when it talks about bringing podcasting into the fold of broadcast.

Brett:
I believe so. You're right. They've done a great job with it. They've done a great job with it. Yeah, I think they're looking at it holistically, that it's a good thing. Don't look at it as a distraction. You can make some money from it, and you can help your clients make some money from it.

Marty:
It's an additional product in your arsenal.

Brett:
Exactly. Exactly. And we are audio experts.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Or so proclaimed to be when we were in radio.

Marty:
Yeah. That was, like, just a little 25-year stint of my life though.

Brett:
Mine too, and now we're out.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
Now we're out, and we're talking about it outside, looking in. But I wanted to kind of go over what's going on with this Podcasters Meet Broadcasters. I should say, I'm gonna call it right, Broadcasters Meet Podcasters track.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
A lot of radio people there. Now, I'll give you a little background when I went to Podcast Movement '18 last year in Philly.

Marty:
Okay.

Brett:
I can tell you without a doubt, there are very few podcasters that went to the Broadcasters Meet Podcasters track.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Guarantee it. And I heard of that, and I saw that very few did. They didn't mingle outside either. Radio people kind of kept their cliques together. You saw them going in their hoards walking around.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah. You guys are recording from your house. We have these big-ass studios.

Brett:
Exactly.

Marty:
I'm not down with this.

Brett:
Hopefully, this year that will be different. I hope so because I think both can learn from each other. In a holistic way, both can learn from each other. Podcasters can learn from broadcasters and vice versa.

Marty:
I hope so. I hope so.

Brett:
Yeah. It would be nice.

Marty:
Because radio has forgotten so much of what it actually is that that's why so many broadcasters are taking the leap into podcasting.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
Or so many guys are finding their way over to XM Sirius.

Brett:
It's the freedom. It's the, "Hey, I can do that now? I don't have to look at a clock anymore?" Sort of thing.

Marty:
Right. Or the consultant.

Brett:
That too. Right.

Marty:
Beat 'em out, yeah.

Brett:
So, looking at what's going on, just to kind of give us some highlights so we have a reference point, and listener, we'll get you to where we're gonna go with this, so you kind of know what's going on, but it kicks off on Wednesday. They have a keynote speaker-

Marty:
Are they the ones that really screwed the pooch to radio? Is that what happened?

Brett:
You know, I think I've heard that.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
I think so. But, you know, that's another episode. We'll talk about that. A track called Radio Leaders on Their Podcasting Strategies. True Crime, Turning Local Events into Hit Podcasts. Nothing like hitting a category that's hit its peak already.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Yeah.

Marty:
Yes, [Serial]. I remember that from a few years ago.

Brett:
Yeah. Branded Podcast Revenue Opportunities for Radio. Please put a bookmark in that, folks, because we're gonna come back to that, all right? And have a little bit of fun with that one.

Marty:
Not that it's a bad thing.

Brett:
No, but we're gonna … That's the main reason that Marty and I are together today. Keynote NPR and Audible veteran, Eric Nuzum – The Tweet that Could Define Podcasting Future.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
10:1,5 that day, What Public Radio Knows that You Don't. And I tell you, folks, they're probably not going to tell you during that session. Real Listener Feedback – Podcast Movement's First Live Focus Group, could be interesting. Raise Your Voice, Smart Speaker Strategy for Podcasts. That may be the best one of the whole track. And that's another episode that we'll have to venture into in regards to-

Marty:
I have to hear why that might be the best.

Brett:
…audio search.

Marty:
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, assuming Google get-

Brett:
Setting yourself up for audio search. Yeah.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah.

Brett:
Podcast Makeover: Professional Broadcasters Critique Up and Coming Podcasts. Don't even go to that one.

Marty:
No, that's so lame.

Brett:
Popular Music in Pocasts. Here it comes. Big, big news coming out during Podcast Movement about podcast music.

Marty:
Really?

Brett:
Yes.

Marty:
Talk to me about that.

Brett:
I don't know what it is yet, but it's coming out. They're making a big, big stink about this other podcast, I'm hearing, that know the inside scoop. You're gonna be able to get music in your podcast for some price. May be not bad pricing.

Marty:
Really?

Brett:
It's gonna happen. Yeah.

Marty:
That's fascinating.

Brett:
They've come up with a solution for it.

Marty:
Right. For those of you who don't know podcasting, it has been virtually taboo to put like a Bob Dylan song or a Beatles song or a Lady Gaga song, and not because of any opposition to the music, but because the licensing is so … It is so complex to figure out exactly what you would pay to put a song in a podcast, and there's just no way to do it, so this is really, really exciting stuff.

Brett:
Yeah.

Marty:
So, all those podcasts you hear them using like, you know, actual tunes off your radio and XM Sirius, they're doing it illegally right now. Every one of them. Every one of them.

Brett:
Right. What this will do is open up another genre of podcasts.

Marty:
That's right. Absolutely.

Brett:
It will open it up in regards to a lot of people that are wanting to do a music podcast. Whether it's maybe a podcast all about Rush, all about Depeche Mode, whatever, you're gonna be able to do that now. It's gonna cost you a little bit of money. Again, I don't know the details, but apparently this news is going to be very beneficial to podcasting and podcasters.

Marty:
Sure. I'm excited about that. I would go just for that for crying out loud.

Brett:
Later on during Podcast Movement, Speed mentoring, Talk Directly with Podcasting Leading Experts.

Marty:
No idea what that is.

Brett:
Apparently there would be some from radio, but okay, anyway. Now they've actually … I take that back. They do have some experts within the field, like Rob Greenlee.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Dave Jackson.

Marty:
Eh.

Brett:
Seth Wrestler.

Marty:
Okay, Seth, I buy into.

Brett:
Ed Ryan, I-

Marty:
What qualifies as an expert? Is it just a guy that's done a podcast?

Brett:
I guess, or like an Ed Ryan who puts together a daily-

Marty:
Clickbait.

Brett:
-clickbait. Yeah. So, that's it right there. Let's kind of go back to that branded podcast idea.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Just recently. This is kind of inside baseball stuff. There was a webinar helping radio stations increase their podcast revenue called Branded Podcasts – How to Sell Branded Podcasts.

Marty:
Very catchy.

Brett:
And it was a good webinar. I'm not gonna say who put it together because it's really neither here nor there. It's just knowledge that it's out there to help radio stations with their clients to create podcasts. Now, both you and I know branded podcasts are a good idea.

Marty:
Absolutely. Fantastic idea.

Brett:
They are a good idea. After this conference you're going to be called upon as a business owner, "Hey, we're doing a branded podcast. This is our new initiative. We wanna talk to you about this. This is the coolest, newest thing, and here's what we're going to do." So, let's talk about what to be aware of.

Marty:
Yeah, sure.

Brett:
And also the pros and cons, what to be aware of. For me, the pros are, yeah, look at it. It's a radio station. They have studios, professional studios, because if you don't have it in your office or your business, it's an opportunity.

Marty:
Okay.

Brett:
Okay. What do you think pro?

Marty:
Well, pro, I think it is a way to extend your voice. I think podcasting is an evergreen medium that is a no waste medium because it goes out into the interwebs, and it stays there forever, so as long as you're putting your message out that represents your business, your business model, your plan, your ideals, do it.

Brett:
I think we have a lot of list of cons for this one, though, that's the problem.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Again, both of us having the large amount of time in radio, we know exactly what drives radio and radio reps and radio station ownership and management.

Marty:
Right. And to be clear, Brett was in the sales and marketing side of radio. I did some sales and marketing, but I was primarily in programming.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
So, that being said-

Brett:
That being said.

Marty:
-there are cons of using radio for all of that.

Brett:
Namely, just beware that they have incentives of their own to get you to do this. Okay. The concept is going to be they're gonna come in and talk to you about … They're gonna create this branded podcast potentially, maybe, it's going to be one of their on-air people that's gonna do a podcast about local breweries, okay? And you own a local brewery, you know? You make your own beer, and that sort of thing, a craft brewer, okay? So, they're gonna wanna talk to you. They're gonna wanna interview you along with five or six other craft brewers in your market. Each episode stands alone. It's gonna be a great series. It will be because that on-air person is into craft brewing.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
They love it. They want to get into your business. They want to know "Why'd you do this?" And the different flavors, what's coming up and such like that. So, that series is gonna be out on their website, and it's gonna be promoted, listened to.

Marty:
It's gonna be easy to talk about for any of the personalities that they have recording breaks, you know, they're gonna be able to cross-mention it across all their, you know?

Brett:
To that end, say yes to that.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
It's a great PR piece. Take the audio. Use it for yourself. They're gonna talk to you about it. You're gonna have a blast.

Marty:
Yep.

Brett:
About two or three weeks later, you're gonna get a call from your sales rep saying, "Hey, did you have a fun time?"

Marty:
"Mm-hmm."

Brett:
"You want to create your own podcast?".

Marty:
"Ooh!"

Brett:
"We can do that. Let's do that."

Marty:
"Okay. What are we gonna talk about?"

Brett:
"Well, what do you wanna talk about?"

Marty:
"Oh, no. But I, you know, I do my craft brew, I do my brewery."

Brett:
"Right, right, right. But let's talk about your craft brewery. So, what do you wanna talk about?"

Marty:
"Uh, my beer."

Brett:
"Okay, so let's go in studio, and we'll talk about a beer week. How's that?"

Marty:
"Um, sounds a little thin."

Brett:
"Yeah, it does, doesn't it?"

Marty:
"Yeah."

Brett:
"But we're gonna charge you $3,000 a month to do that though because-"

Marty:
That's right, because you're gonna get an ad schedule with it.

Brett:
"-an ad schedule, our radio station's a bullhorn. I have qualitative here to show you that our listeners loved craft beer."

Marty:
"Ratings that show you have?"

Brett:
"No, no, no, not ratings qualitative because, you know, we don't subscribe. You know, I've got all qualitative to show you."

Marty:
"Okay."

Brett:
"And we're gonna put it on our website, but I can't show you the numbers on the website, the views on it, you know?"

Marty:
"Yeah, because that just doesn't work right now."

Brett:
"Yeah, and don't ask me how many people really go to our website or listen to audio on our website."

Marty:
Right. It kind of reminds me of one of those infomercials from the '70s where the Asian kids were, like, slamming their hands down on the thing.

Brett:
Exactly.

Marty:
That's how many there are.

Brett:
So, what we're saying is yes, the follow-up call from the sales rep could be good. If you're interested in doing a podcast, go ahead and do it, but be careful. Know why you're doing this podcast.

Marty:
Have strategy.

Brett:
Have a strategy of why you're doing it. What we're saying is the radio station probably won't bring a strategy to you.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
It's the they're going to take the emotional high that you're off of from doing that podcast and having all that love given to you by the on-air person and the sales staff and maybe a few listeners that came in and said, "Wow, we heard you on Joe show podcast."

Marty:
Think about this, man, isn't it natural that when somebody does something like that, they go, "Hey, guys, I'm going to be, and check this out." They're gonna tell all their closest friends and family. They're gonna tell all their best customers about it, so they make sure that they know that this podcast they're on, that's about me.

Brett:
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Marty:
It's about my expertise. You're gonna get instant gratification from the closest people around you. That's great. They're already fans of yours.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
You don't need a radio station to talk to them. You don't need to pay a radio station $3,000 a month to talk to them because you can talk to them, and chances are they will pay you for your beer.

Brett:
Right. Probably so.

Marty:
Just saying. There's a chance.

Brett:
Right. So, us giving you this information is arming you to throw back some questions to them because, again, inherently, this whole idea is a good idea because the radio station does have opportunities to help you grow your business. If you strategically take a look at how you create your own podcast as a season, okay? Could be that they come back and say, "Hey, would you like to create your own series?" Could be six or seven episodes. Good. Look at it that way. Now, look at how you're gonna do those six or seven, okay? Is your craft brew location, okay? Are you a big soccer base?

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Maybe you should be talking about soccer with it. You know your clientele.

Marty:
Right. What is the culture and lifestyle of the people that you see coming in your doors? Who is it that is buying? If you have distribution on a local, statewide, or regional basis, what are the demographics, psychographics of the people that are buying your particular product? What is it that is attractive to people about your product? And then, try to know as much about that person's lifestyle, and talk as much about that kind of thing within your podcast. Is it soccer? Is it dark beers, you know?

Brett:
Any sports. Right. It could be a food pairing with the beer.

Marty:
Sure. Absolutely.

Brett:
Anything that's happening. What you're not going to get is what we just talked about this last two minutes, you're not gonna get that from sales rep.

Marty:
Yeah. You're gonna have to go in there with that yourself.

Brett:
Yes. It's not gonna happen. It's not going to happen.

Marty:
Absolutely. If you do not go in there with it yourself. In fact, here's what they'll do, "Well, you know, what I was really thinking was just, like, we just come in here and we talk. We just talk."

Brett:
Because that's what the on-air personality wants to do.

Marty:
Well, but the thing of it is the on-air personality wants to do that because the on-air personality has about 15 other things that they have to do back at the station because radio has bled itself dry of having enough people and workforce in place to be able to do anything effective. Which is why we don't have anything called local radio, by and large, anymore. Even stations that are "dominating local radio" aren't local radio anymore.

Brett:
So, you are going to have to come in with your own concept.

Marty:
Yes.

Brett:
You are going to have to stress that you're going to do this. They are not the professionals in this field.

Marty:
Not a bit.

Brett:
Not in the least. They're professionals at selling you airtime to support it.

Marty:
Yes.

Brett:
And that's where they're getting their commission is selling you the additional airtime that you're going to buy to promote your podcast.

Marty:
Yep. Now, here's what I always find interesting, okay? Because you can find out how popular, what kind of authority the radio station has online. You can find that out. Look at community events that are real popular, and just do a search for that community event. If a radio station's website pops up to the top on that one, that's not really their authority. That's that event's authority. Look to see, though, why people go to that station. Why are people going to that station? Now, what we do know about radio is that radio still has listeners. It still has listeners.

Brett:
You bet. You bet.

Marty:
But where they disconnect with this is that they do not have any idea of how to put a strategy together to make a podcast successful for a business. They might have podcasts of their own where their radio hosts do podcasts that are basically just riffs off their show like after hours, but they don't have any track record, none whatsoever, of building shows that are solely based on the universe of this business. When you go online, you're stepping outside of the universe of that radio station, and you're stepping into the internet. So, Mr. Business Owner, what's your universe? That's where that radio station has to go and, if they don't take you there, they have no strategy to take you outside of their universe and then place you solidly within where your wheelhouse is, move on dot org.

Brett:
What they're going to suggest is, that because it's such a match of your category business to their listeners, that, yes, that podcast should live on their website without telling you that, number one, most people don't listen to website, they listen to podcasts on websites.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
It's on your smartphone.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
Okay? Most radio station smart apps are not designed to play audio as a podcast.

Marty:
That's right. Because they want to push their live stream. They want to push their live signal.

Brett:
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Thirdly, if you do want to do this, get away from the website. Yes, great, that your audio, your podcast, your series can live on their website, but if they don't suggest that you have this podcast live on its own, that it can be found in Apple podcasts, Spotify, TuneIn, all the other platforms that are the norm for podcast listeners outside of the radio station, they're doing you a disservice, and they are not going to suggest this.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
They're not going to do it.

Marty:
That is correct.

Brett:
That may be the biggest red flag. If you do not hear them advise you to do that or to help you do that, runaway.

Marty:
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Runaway.

Brett:
Because that message that you've crafted and you spent a lot of time putting together that series of seven, you get excited about, and it just lives on their website, and it goes nowhere else, you've wasted your time.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
You really have in the long run.

Marty:
It's kind of interesting because I left radio in 2002. I snuck back in when we had an emergency down in Nashville, and I got back involved in radio there for a couple of years, but I left radio in 2002. Then, from 2005 on, or 2005 to about 2008, I did a podcast called Nothing Flashy. It was just me talking into a microphone about current events and daily things. I got so many bookings off of that back then, and now the industry, it is an industry now, is just swelling like crazy.

Marty:
So, when you talk about things that matter to your core customer in a way that bridges that gap from where they're at to your business, that's when your business becomes infinitely more important to them, and they are infinitely more likely to do business with you. Radio stations don't get that yet because they're not even doing that with their own podcasts, outside of NPR. NPR is willing to walk away from the signal. NPR is willing to walk away from the signal, which is why they're being successful with their podcasts.

Brett:
They get the emotional tie that a podcast can have with your audience that you're building this image of your business. Again, we go back to the craft brewing that every category is competitive. Craft brewing is very competitive. You can buy craft brew pretty much anywhere you want, so what makes that one logo different than the other? There's a story behind why your craft brew is better than the other in your mind, and it's valid. You've got to tell people.

Marty:
Yeah,

Brett:
And this is a great platform to do so, and that lends toward any business category.

Marty:
That's right. That's exactly right.

Brett:
Any business category. What we're trying to lay out here, and we're being very negative about radio and by design because we do know the ins and outs. We both have been in it, in and out, for 25 years. I left it close to two years ago. We do know their drive, and it's not necessarily to your benefit, okay? I think they're trying, but there are some pieces missing to this that you've got to be aware that you're gonna spend, I guess I look at it as spend a lot of time for nothing, and you're gonna get turned off by doing a podcast because it didn't do what you wanted it to do.

Marty:
Right, and you're gonna say, "Well, if a radio station can't make it go, well, then gosh, dot, dot, dot …"

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
Well, here's the deal. People have "purchased ads" from radio stations for years that didn't work. The reason they didn't work is because the "marketing consultant", did not care enough to tell the person, "Okay, in order to reach your audience effectively to generate revenues for you, you're going to have to do this many commercials in a week," because they were afraid you were not going to write the check, so, what they did is they backed down from it, from what would be really effective to only speak to your pain and tolerance. What is the tolerance level you have for curing the pain that you have right now by not having customers?

Marty:
Okay, so if it would be, for instance, in Columbus, Ohio, you know, a budget of $3,000 to $5,000 a month would not be really anything big. That would be a very common ad budget. Same in Nashville, but that would be just your average schedule. A strong schedule, if your business brand needed it to convey that message, could be as much as $10,000 or $12,000 a month, and people are like, "Oh, my goodness, that is a lot of money." It's a lot of money if you're not seeing any money coming back in …

Brett:
Right. If it doesn't work, I've got a toilet you can flush it in.

Marty:
Right on.

Brett:
Everybody does.

Marty:
The thing of it is, though, you have to make sure you're paired with the right people to get your voice heard.

Brett:
That is exactly the message we are putting together here for you for this podcast is that if you have an interest in doing a podcast, great. You got excited to be on that on-air host's podcast. Great, you know, talking about craft brewery. Fantastic. You got a nice little PR case out of it. People talked about it. They're excited about it. They come back. You do want to do a series. Okay. Here are some steps that you do to take to protect yourself, to protect your time, to make sure that it does work.

Marty:
You know, here's the other thing, too, and this is just kind of where it's at. You really need to, you know, you're the owner of the business, and your marketing, your advertising is really created in order for you to go ahead and go about your business. We already know that the radio station is going to send somebody over to you that's going to have this strategy to go ahead and exploit all the facets of your business. I cannot help but think that even by calling Brett or myself or another, you know, I can't speak for other podcast production companies. I don't know anybody. I've known Brett for maybe 25 years now.

Brett:
Mm-hmm.

Marty:
Yeah, when we worked for the same company. But I know that we would both be willing to just, "Look. We don't have to produce it. Go ahead and produce it with a radio station, but let's talk through a strategy. Let's map out a strategy for you," I think, would you be happy to do that?

Brett:
Sure. You bet. Because I do believe that this strategy that the radio stations putting together for you does make sense. There are just parts that are missing that won't make it happen right.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Because they don't have, we're just going to call it just reality, podcast consultant, on their staff to know how to use podcasting to its most effective being.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
I don't care if it's one episode or six or three years in, there's a strategy to this as with any marketing tool, and that's what podcasting is – a marketing tool. It's not just a fun and games. You can have fun doing it, of course. I encourage you. Don't do it unless you have some fun, but there is some strategy to it because this can become something very, very versatile, important, long tail, that can be talked about for a very long time.

Marty:
Sure. And it can be repromoted over and over and over again.

Brett:
If done right.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
If done right.

Marty:
But you have to do it correctly. So, you know, if you have questions about those types of things, you can reach out to me, and I'll go ahead and put out my email address info@podovox.com. Info at P-O-D-O-V-O-X dot com. And, Brett, you can reach him at Circle 270 Media, what's your email?

Brett:
Podcasts@circle270media.com. But I think the main thing is really go to our websites, honestly, when it comes down to it.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Websites, let's talk about your website.

Marty:
Sure. P-O-D-O-V-O-X Podovox.com.

Brett:
And you can go to Circle270Media.com as well. If you're in Marty's area, or it's a little bit more convenient to talk to him face to face or whatever, we'll flip back and forth. It's not a problem, so.

Marty:
Sure. Yeah.

Brett:
But, you know, we're pretty much worldwide when it comes down to it.

Marty:
That's the truth.

Brett:
We're here to help, and honestly, we both have gotten into and are doing podcast consulting because we love the medium.

Marty:
Sure. I was talking to somebody about coming up here and doing this with you because we're recording this out of really nice studios here in Columbus, Ohio where Brett works in conjunction with them. It's Studio-

Brett:
511 Media.

Marty:
511 Media. I'm so sorry.

Brett:
No.

Marty:
Beautiful studios. Better than many, many radio stations I've worked at. Actually, it reminds me of the CD101 studios when they first launched down on South High Street.

Brett:
That would be the best analogy.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Best example.

Marty:
It really does.

Brett:
We were talking about that before we started recording, radio stations that would have something like this, and you're right because of what they do with some live bands and interview situations. Yep. You're right [cross talk]

Marty:
You know, the thing of it is is that you can come in here into this studio and sit down and record … The sound's pretty good, I think, right? What you're listening to right now? Other than it being my voice, because there's no sweeter sound to anybody than their own voice and their own name, right?

Brett:
Their own voice, right, right.

Marty:
If you're in the Columbus area, for sure, you want to be working with Studio 511. If you are down in Lexington, Kentucky, or if you are in Nashville, Tennessee, or if you are in Louisville, Kentucky, that's really where I am working. I live in eastern Kentucky now, rural eastern Kentucky, because I'm around family. The cool thing is, is that I have the ability to be in Nashville and Lexington and Louisville and even Huntington, West Virginia, very quickly and very easily, and I don't actually have to be there with you to make this happen, what?

Brett:
Right. I know. It's magic. Yes, it's magic. No, that's the way the world is right now too. But, yeah, please give us a call, email, contact, if you are looking at expanding any ideas at a radio station has brought to you. Again, we're not all negative about radio, but I think there's some opportunities that if done wisely, we'll work to your benefit.

Marty:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, give us a call.

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Joining me is Marty Daniels, owner of Podovox Professional Podcast Services.

Podcast Movement 2019, or PM19, includes a conference track entitled Broadcasters Meet Podcasters. One session in this track is called Branded Podcasts: Revenue Opportunities for Radio.

We have the inside information about this session, and offer our insights to radio advertisers who are going to be presented this marketing idea.

The good and the bad.

For the third consecutive year, Jacobs Media is partnering with the organizers of Podcast Movement conference. This track is designed to help the radio and podcast industries to discuss how the two sectors can work together. In what’s been dubbed a conference-within-a-conference, the three days of sessions in Orlando in August 2019 focuses not only on successful podcasting strategies but also where podcasting is heading.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Radio, Podcasting and Sponsorships

Podcasting, Radio, And Sponsors (transcribed by Sonix)

Brett Johnson: From Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, located in downtown Columbus, Ohio, this is Note to Future Me. I’m Brett Johnson, owner of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. Note to Future Me is dedicated to interviewing businesses, and organizations who have implemented podcasting into their marketing strategy, but, in this episode, I’m taking a sidestep.

Brett Johnson: I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast, Whiskey Business, and former longtime morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast, Lawyer Talk, and owner, and partner at the law firm of Yavitch & Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Brett Johnson: Okay, now you’re thinking what do we three have in common? Radio, and podcasting. Dino, of course, with his years on air, and his podcast; Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast, and has been a radio advertiser, and has been a part of a morning radio call-in show on 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. I’m a 35-year-plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

Brett Johnson: I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time, and I have two great guests to talk about it – how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light about podcasting. We three have different viewpoints, coming from three different perspectives, and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus. I think you’re gonna enjoy this insider’s view. As always, thanks for taking notes with me.

Brett Johnson: As you’ve heard in my past episodes, I’ve gone the theme of businesses, and podcasting. This episode, I wanna kinda take a sidebar. With my background in radio, as you well know, as a listener of my podcast, I wanna occasionally address the radio, and podcasting theme – its weaknesses; its strengths; its existence at all, if nothing else.

Brett Johnson: I thought this episode would be great to do because I’ve got two radio experts; generals.

Dino Tripodis: You do?

Brett Johnson: I do [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I was like, “Okay, we’re here. When are the other guys coming?”

Brett Johnson: We’ve got Dino Tripodis, who is, first off, the host of Whiskey Business podcast – I’m gonna give the podcast a vote of confidence, first – as well as a former morning show co-host for a local radio station in Columbus, Ohio, WSNY Sunny 95; as well as Steve Palmer, who is the owner of law firm Yavitch & Palmer, and … You kinda go, “Attorney? What’s the deal?” Well, anyway, he is the host of the Lawyer Talk: Off the Record podcast, as well as a longtime radio advertiser on a local station in Columbus. The Blitz, 99.7 FM.

Brett Johnson: I think we all three can bring three different perspectives to radio, and podcasting that I want to explore. I have my opinion. I know Dino has his. I know Steve has his.

Steve Palmer: Uh-huh.

Brett Johnson: I think it should be fun. Let’s, though, go this route, first. Give a little bit about your background, Dino, in regards to what you’ve done with your life up until this point, as well as how the Whiskey Business podcast came about.

Dino Tripodis: What have I done with my life? That’s a good question. You know what? I think my mother asked me that same question just a week ago. “What have you done with your life?” 24 years, that’s 1995 … It was the only radio job I had ever had.

Dino Tripodis: I came into it as a comedian doing stand-up. I was a guest on their show as a comedian, and then … I’ll skip a lot of the minutia, but there was an opening to work there as a co-host with another gentleman who, at the time, was hosting the show – Bob Simpson. I reluctantly took the job, thinking this is gonna be one of those ‘It’s nice when he visits. It’s not gonna be so nice when he’s there all the time’ situations. That show was good, but didn’t work.

Dino Tripodis: The following year, they let Mr. Simpson go, and I thought they were gonna let myself, and Stacy McKay go, as well, at the end of the year, because that happened in October. Come January, they sat us down and said, “We’d like you to be the new morning show.” Once again I thought, “Okay, they’ll come to their senses, and realize they made a horrible mistake.” 24 years later, I was still there, but I did leave in June of 2018 [cross talk] 24 great years. Great station. Just a great run.

Brett Johnson: The Whiskey Business podcast came about through that time period, then, too, right?

Dino Tripodis: Well, Sunny 95, or Saga Communications, Columbus Radio Group, whatever you wanna call them, started to see that podcasting was becoming a thing, and digital media was becoming a thing, as well. They started to hop on it, and wanted to take advantage of the opportunities that were in there, in respects to sales, and making money.

Dino Tripodis: They approached Stacy, first – she does a podcast called Momcast, which is very popular, and very good – and they asked me if I wanted to do a podcast. At first, I said, “Ehhh, I don’t know.” I thought, okay, if I did one, what would it be? What do I like? What do I know? We came up with Whiskey Business, which I did not want it to be a podcast about whiskey, so much as it … That’s our tagline, “Not so much a podcast about whiskey as it is one with whiskey.”.

Dino Tripodis: The only running theme in our podcast is we share a different bottle of whiskey every week, with a different guest. We don’t claim to be experts in whiskey. There are far more knowledgeable men, and women out there who know their whiskey than I do, but we do learn a little bit about the bottle. Then, what’s really fun is the conversations that we have. Our guests run from A to Z, as far as topics. We’ve had lawyers on the show. We’ve had a couple of attorneys.

Steve Palmer: All right.

Dino Tripodis: Three of ’em … I said two. Three. I think you probably know ’em all.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I think I do. We talked a little bit off the air about that before we were recording, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they’ve all had … One of ’em has a podcast, as well. Alex Hastie.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Alex is a friend of mine, and he’s been on our podcast.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, Ohio v. the World.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Great podcast, actually [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: He’s been on ours three times. Yeah, small world, smaller city, I always like to say.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. Correct.

Steve Palmer: Columbus is one of those cities where, if you just start poking around, sooner or later, you’re gonna find people that know people that know people that know you, and the chains get smaller, and smaller.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, there’s like three degrees of separation, as opposed to the classic six [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Exactly.

Brett Johnson: Steve, let’s talk a little bit about how you got into doing the podcast, but also your history with advertising with The Blitz, and how it all kinda transitioned into where you are today.

Steve Palmer: I’m really just a criminal defense lawyer [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, “just” a criminal defense lawyer?

Steve Palmer: What’s interesting is in the back that you were talking about Blazer, and I started going on The Blitz with Blazer and Mo, years ago. This is about 2006 or ’07. My partner, who’s now deceased, Eric Yavitch, he was cruising home one day, or cruising into the office, one day, and there was … Actually in, because it was morning.

Steve Palmer: Here’s Mo griping about getting a speeding ticket in the city of Dublin. It was classic Mo shtick, where he was, “Black man in Dublin. Here I go. Now, they’re gonna get me. What I need is a good Jewish lawyer. I gotta get …” Yavitch, who was my partner at the time, calls him, and says, “I’ll represent you for free.”.

Steve Palmer: That spawned a couple phone calls. Next thing I know, we’re going into the station to talk about representing Mo in a speeding ticket, and we had a charity going on. We were gonna sell some raffle tickets for a charity. We walked in, and I remember … I think it was Blazer came up, and said, “You guys wanna do maybe a little phone-in question-and-answer legal advice?” I said, “Well, sure. Why not?”

Brett Johnson: Why not?

Steve Palmer: Next thing I know, here I am a decade later … I’ve been doing that same phone-in show weekly, now, for almost 10 years now. It went off the air while The Blitz took their hiatus. The morning show for-

Brett Johnson: The ‘old Coke/new Coke’ experiment, right?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, they changed brands a couple times, and then came back. Ultimately, after I bounced around to QFM, and then … I think I even … Yeah, I went over to CD101 for a while. That was a failure. Then I ended up back at The Blitz, and here we are.

Steve Palmer: Along those lines, what I thought …Here’s what I started doing about radio advertising. I never cared about it, to be perfectly blunt. I just … It didn’t make any sense to me. I never understood it. I never thought I would hire a lawyer who’s got a commercial on the radio. What happened is when I started doing that phone-in legal advice, people started calling me; “Hey, you’re the guy on a radio.”.

Dino Tripodis: Well, it becomes … You take it a step further, where you actually become now just … You’re more than just a radio commercial, you’ve, whether you realize it or not, become a personality.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet.

Dino Tripodis: That’s far more identifiable than just a spot on the radio.

Steve Palmer: Yep, and you guys know that from your … I didn’t even … No experience with radio or doing anything … In fact, I used to be scared to death to walk in there-

Brett Johnson: Me either.

Steve Palmer: It was probably the same thing, like when you just [inaudible] “Hey, you wanna be on our show?” It was like, “Sure. How does this work?” Now, I get to the point where, every few weeks, I’ll be checking out at Kroger, or I had one time at Harbor Freight, and somebody says, “Do I know you?” Here I am, wearing a ball cap backwards. I’ve been working in my yard; I’m sweaty; I’m whatever, and I’m like, “I don’t think so. I don’t …” and she, “Are you on the radio?” I was like, ” Well, yeah, yeah, I happen …” “You’re that lawyer on the radio!”

Steve Palmer: That’s where the advertising component shakes hands with me being on, but whether … I always looked at the advertising as an opportunity for me to be on the air, and share my personality – who I am, how I do things. That is the best advertising I’ve got, as far as radio goes.

Dino Tripodis: There’s other attorneys who have radio spots, but don’t you think, because you do that phone-in, and that segment, that it elevates you a little bit?

Steve Palmer: Yeah-.

Dino Tripodis: Because that’s how I think it transfers, or translates into the mind of the consumer. “Well, yeah, I heard a lawyer spot for that guy, but this guy actually has a show.”

Steve Palmer: Yeah. “He’s on the radio.” I think it sort of reinforces the brand. The radio spots are usually my voice, so it reinforces my voice, and it works only because I’ve got both [cross talk] and it works well.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: With all due respect, you have a good voice. Over the 24 years that I’ve did radio, there’ll be clients that would wanna voice their own spots, and I’m like, “Okay … That’s not really a good idea.”

Brett Johnson: Right. Exactly.

Steve Palmer: Right, right, right …

Dino Tripodis: But you, you have a good voice.

Steve Palmer: Well, thank you, yeah …

Brett Johnson: With your gig on the air, you’re the first one that’ll defer: “I’ll get you in contact with somebody. I don’t know the answer to that,” or, “I’ll take a good stab here, but you need to call …” That is cred, beyond belief.

Steve Palmer: I learned this a long time ago is that … I learned at the dinner table, where, if you don’t know, you say you don’t know, and you become intelligent, or smart, when you realize you don’t know anything. What I do is really all about problem-solving, and I look at my job that way.

Steve Palmer: If somebody calls in, I don’t act like a know-it-all if I don’t know it. I just say, “Listen, here’s what I think is going on; let’s put you in touch with the right person. You need a roof, we’ll get you a roofer; you need some plumbing, we’ll get you a plumber; you need a lawyer that does probate, we’ll get that person.”

Steve Palmer: I think that does … If there’s young lawyers listening, you should follow this advice: understand what you don’t know, and it’s okay not to know. You don’t you don’t need to know everything. That’s the trick, and then, focus on solving the problem, however that is.

Brett Johnson: Let’s talk about how you got started with podcast, then, which … I love this story.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, we would come … I said for years … Remember when reality TV hit? This is back in, what, the mid-late ’90s. All the sudden, all these reality TV shows … Eric Yavitch, and I were sitting in our office, and we said, “We oughta have a reality TV show,” because we get back from court, and we’re just spent. It’s that slap-happy time of the day, when you start just doing funny stuff. I thought, “Man, a reality show would love this.”.

Steve Palmer: Then, when I started doing the radio show, I thought, “Man, I’d love to have my own radio show,” and I said, sort of rhetorically, “Man, if I could just have … If I could just make a living doing radio, I would do that.” Jeff Linn, who now has been with me for a long time, is a of the next generation. He listens to Rogan, and all these podcasts. I said, “Podcast? What the hell is that?” I do the radio show …

Dino Tripodis: It’s the future …

Steve Palmer: It’s the future.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: He said we oughta do a podcast, so I thought, “Well, all right. One of these days, we’ll do one.” Well, Brett, you’re sitting outside the studio one time after … On a Wednesday-

Brett Johnson: Like a vulture [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: He’s a vulture. He’s got of stack of these Circle-something cards. We started talking about podcasts, and I said, “Yeah, that’s funny, because I’ve been … Jeff Linn, my guy, we’ve been talking about doing this now for months …” That’s the thing is that I didn’t have the, I guess … I didn’t have the knowledge to actually push it over the goal line. I could talk about it; I could do it, but I was somewhere on the 50-yard line. The thought of actually figuring out how to record something [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, I’m with you there. If not for an excellent producer, yeah, there’d be no Whiskey Business.

Steve Palmer: It’s a confusing, complicated mess, and then, getting it to podcast land? I didn’t even know what that was. Now, I’ve heard people trying to write apps for Apple, and I’m like, “That doesn’t … That’s impossible. You can’t do that.” It was your expertise, Brett, that sort of gave us that push to get it actually started, and going.

Brett Johnson: All right. Then, Dino was asking about “Okay, studio looks great, down here. How’d this start up?” Talk about the development of the 511 Studios, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, what is this little-

Steve Palmer: Yeah, this little oasis-

Dino Tripodis: -niche of audio nirvana doing down here in this legal building?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you walked into my law office, and then, I’d bring you down to this little- this studio. We were doing the podcast at a conference table in my office upstairs. I bought the building a couple years ago from my mentor, a guy named Bill Meeks, who’s passed away, but …

Steve Palmer: As we did this podcast, I bought a microphone. I thought, “All right, I’ve spent what I need to spend.” I bought a microphone. I got this … Maybe I’ll do it on my phone, and record digitally. Then, I bought a better digital recorder. Then, I bought another microphone, and then I bought another microphone-.

Dino Tripodis: It’s crack.

Steve Palmer: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It’s audio crack.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and all the time, he’s asking me, “What do you think about this?” It’s like, “Yeah, if you wanna go that direction, that’s really good stuff. If you wanna do that, that’s okay. You’ll love …” We get kicking around, and he wants to look at these AVs. I said, “I got one. I’ll bring it down. You can listen to A.B. … Do the A.B. test …” He plugs this bad boy in; he goes, “I’m sold” [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: At the radio, you go to … There’s a certain sound, and you guys know this better than I, but I had no idea that there was a sound associated, and by sound, I mean a mix, or whatever the hell it is, associated with on-air radio/broadcast radio.

Steve Palmer: I got addicted to that, and headphones over at the studio, over at 99.7, and I just … Anything short of that, in my own podcast, seemed inadequate.

Brett Johnson: Uh-huh. I guess so.

Steve Palmer: Brett comes down … He’s over, and Brett … We come down here in the basement, in this room. and there’s chairs stacked … Literally, chairs [cross talk] I bought the building furnished. I needed a place to store all the crap, so there’s chairs stacked to the ceiling, and we’re … I said, “Yeah, I’m thinking about maybe building a studio down here.”

Steve Palmer: One thing led to another. I put this … I put paneling up. I got the right kind of sound stuff. I started building acoustical panels. We bought monitors; bought a mixing board. I didn’t like that, so I bought another one. I got these amps, so I needed pre-amps to run- or these mics. I needed pre-amps to run the mics. Then, we thought, “Well, we might as well have the ability to put it on TV.”

Dino Tripodis: Sure! Why not? Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Now, we can do streaming. We’ve got five cameras mounted that are around our little roundtable here that everybody can be on a camera at all times; we can mix the video for people …

Dino Tripodis: We just started doing YouTube videos, as well. Not as sophisticated as these five mounted cameras; we have two GoPro cameras that are filming myself, and my guest. Then, I wanted to do a little shout out, if I can, please, to my Producer, Greg Hansberry, who I’d be lost without, and also the producer of our YouTube videos, Director John Whitney, who is a filmmaker-collaborator, and just wanted to join in on the fun. He edits down the YouTube videos, as well.

Dino Tripodis: We went from the studio at Sunny, when we had the podcast over there, and now we go … We’re at my house, and we have some of that equipment, that early equipment, that seems to suffice for us, right now. But this … This … I don’t … There’s also something to be said, and like I said, it comes down to a great producer. They mix it really well, and do a great job with it.

Dino Tripodis: There’s something about the ambiance of doing it from my home. It’s in my bar, and there’s just something very comfortable about the atmosphere of it. I think I think we would lose something now, if we left that particular place, now. Could I make it more sound-pleasing? Probably. I could probably do some things. We did one in the basement one time, too, which, Hansberry immediately said, “Ah, the acoustics down here are even better. We should do it down here all the time.” I’m like, “Whatever. I don’t know …” but, yeah-

Steve Palmer: I just- I’m the talent, right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I don’t know. Talk to him … Plus, as far as how it sounds, you probably have the benefit of a better ear … Brett, you’re probably hearing-deficient, on some level, in one of these ears, after all your years of radio.

Brett Johnson: A little bit; a little bit [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I know I am for sure.

Steve Palmer: Really?

Dino Tripodis: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Steve Palmer: Wow, okay.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, sometimes, it’s conveniently so [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: You said what? Huh?

Dino Tripodis: Sometimes, it’s actual. Yeah, this is great. This is great.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, it’s a neat place, and you know what happens down here; it’s become a think tank for us. It’s become a place where not only do we record our show, but we … I talk about stuff down here, whether it’s being recorded or not. We solve problems down here. This is my little escape in the middle of the day to come down, and either record a show, hang out, or do whatever … Stuff like we’re doing right now. I love it down here. I don’t regret any of it. The only thing I can think is how can I make it better?

Brett Johnson: Right. Right.

Steve Palmer: I’m always thinking about that.

Brett Johnson: Right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Talk to the two radio guys. We have ways [cross talk].

Brett Johnson: Exactly. There you go.

Steve Palmer: It sounds like I need your production team. I got all this fancy equipment; I don’t know how to use it.

Dino Tripodis: You got a lotta fancy equipment.

Brett Johnson: Right. What kind of support did you get – we talked a little bit before we recorded – from the radio station group. I know they approached you; they wanted you to do one. From that day forward, “Yep, I’m cool; I’m gonna do this …” What kinda support did you get from them? I mean, frustrations, and good, and bad. Talk about that.

Dino Tripodis: First of all, they gave me carte blanche, as far as content. There wasn’t any what I like to call ‘Sunny restrictions.’

Brett Johnson: Sure, yeah, right … You weren’t on air with it.

Dino Tripodis: I was not air. Yes, this is on the internet. We didn’t have to worry so much about content, language, et cetera, et cetera. Supportive in that they ran spots for the podcast on a regular basis, and, once again, part of that was, when we had sponsors, they kinda had to.

Dino Tripodis: I think where they dropped the ball was in sales. I don’t know … If there are salespeople in radio that might be listening to this, you need to embrace the future, which is digital media, and find a way to sell it. If it seems like it’s a small-potatoes package to sell to one person for X amount, it’s not.

Dino Tripodis: I’m sorry if it’s not Giant Eagle, or Kroger, or one of the big car dealerships, where you’re gonna make a lot of money, but you need to wrap your head around the fact that it’s not going anywhere. In fact, it’s growing as we speak. By not trying to sell it, you’re missing out on dollars. You are, personally; so is your radio station.

Dino Tripodis: There’s a lot of money to be made in digital media from an advertising perspective, and I think that’s where they … I won’t say they didn’t support it, but I don’t think they went at it as aggressively as they could have. I think the salespeople could not wrap their heads around this small little thing, where you just talk about whatever you want, and that’s it. It goes out on the internet, and it’s not on the radio. It’s not actually on the radio.

Steve Palmer: You’re not a big boy. You just got your little basement thing, but … Here, I think your words of wisdom are really, really true. That is they better jump on board, or somebody like me will, or somebody with a studio here will do it. Because having spent a lot of dollars on radio advertising, I see it both ways.

Steve Palmer: I can see that, all right, if you’re the big boy … I don’t know what the big boys would spend. I don’t know what a big car dealership would spend on the radio, as far as advertising, but it’s a monthly fee, I suspect, and it’s probably high. Then, you get to a point where what is the return on that?

Steve Palmer: If you could get the same return on a popular podcast, for half the money, eventually, the big boys are gonna start bailing. They’re gonna go over to the podcast land. I sort of see it like maybe, not only the radio advertiser, or the salespeople, but maybe even the radio stations, themselves, better start thinking how to … They should start cashing in on some of those dollars.

Dino Tripodis: I get it, too. It’s the blinders mentality. You don’t know how … You can; you can find out how many people are listening to your podcast, but, the fact that there are X amount of radio stations in Columbus, Ohio, compared to the literally thousands of podcasts, hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are out there, and available to consume …

Dino Tripodis: I can see where an advertiser might go, “Well, how are we gonna cut through … There’s 500,000 podcasts out there.” Yeah, well, there are, but really, there’s really only 200,000 of those who are actually active on a regular basis, and then, only 50 percent of those are actually good. The number starts to get down to a smaller amount.

Dino Tripodis: If you take that model, and you break it down to what’s available, here in Columbus, as far as a local advertiser, and the fact, if you can convince ’em it’s just not going out to Columbus, it’s going out everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: Sure, you might have listeners in Columbus that are dedicated listeners that will … Good, but your name, your brand, is going everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet, and what does that correspond with? Internet sales, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: It’s like the brick-and-mortar store is not so important anymore. Even car dealers. I was shopping for cars recently, and I realized quickly I wasn’t looking at a dealership in central Ohio at all. It was somewhere outta state. They were marketing all over, because … It didn’t seem weird to me to go travel somewhere to buy a car, and that’s not even mail order. If I got a mail-order product, or any product I can ship, a podcast is limitless, as far as who you can reach. It really is limitless, if you get a good one.

Steve Palmer: I’m curious. You were a professional deejay, and then you make a shift to podcast. Did you catch any flack in the business, that way? Do people think, “All right, now you’re just a podcaster; you’re not a professional …” How many people are making that transition?

Dino Tripodis: I don’t know. As far as what people think – is podcasting some sort of-

Steve Palmer: It’s a lesser-

Dino Tripodis: -lesser bastard child [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Retirement home for-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, where you go-

Brett Johnson: -for on-air personalities …

Dino Tripodis: “Oh, when you’re done with radio, you go into a podcasting.”.

Brett Johnson: Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: There’s some truth to that, because, as I mentioned before, it seems like everybody’s got a podcast.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: I make a joke that the sixth-grader that lives down the street from me has a podcast about boy bands, and bracelets, and has more listeners than I do. I mean, it seems like everybody’s got a podcast. By the same token, no, I don’t think … I haven’t gotten any flack about it being lesser than, mainly because I think I was doing it while I was on the air.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: When I first started, the first solid year and a half, they were married hand-in-hand. It was my choice to take the podcast with me, when I left. That was one of the arrangements that I made, for lack of a better word, that I wanted to take the podcast, and all the proprietary rights, and all the intellectual property that’s associated with Whiskey Business with me, because I wanted to possibly take it a step further. Since they weren’t really doing anything with it, sales-wise, it seemed like, “Eh, let him have it.”

Brett Johnson: Right. Yep.

Steve Palmer: I think eventually that … Well, I heard this, Brett, that Howard Stern was sort of jesting a little bit about Rogan’s podcast, like, “Aw, he’s just … He’s a podcaster.”

Brett Johnson: Really?

Steve Palmer: Howard Stern’s been the radio guru forever. He’s made tons of money doing it. Then, he shifted to satellite radio, or digital, whatever that’s called now. Then, he was he was sort of poking at Rogan, like, “Aw, what’s he do? He’s not making any money. He’s not doing anything.” It’s like, but he is, right? [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: You bet he is.

Steve Palmer: Like the hare and the tortoise; you better watch out.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, Rogan’s doing very well. There’s some good podcasts out there-

Brett Johnson: Guess who’s in the press right now? Rogan is. Stern ain’t.

Steve Palmer: No, that’s exactly-

Brett Johnson: Stern gets talked about very, very little anymore.

Steve Palmer: He doesn’t care. He’s made his money [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Oh, yeah. He’s not in that stage of the game.

Steve Palmer: What’s happening is that you’ve got, like, Ben Shapiro. He’s making tons of money on his little podcast; you’ve got Rogan making lots of money. There’s dozens of guys that are taking this format, and making it work financially. I think sooner or later, the sponsorship money will, or the advertising money will have to follow.

Brett Johnson: Coming from my background, just recently exiting a local radio station group after … Well, I’ve been in radio for over 35 years, but 20 years there, in sales, but I also did some on-air promotions, and such. I’ve been on both sides of the building, let’s put it that way …

Brett Johnson: Leaving there, I can tell you, at least from an industry standpoint, it has to come from top down. If owners don’t get it, the rest of the building won’t get it either. I know a lot of it’s coming from the programming, and it sounds as though, in your situation, Dino, it was welcomed. That’s great, but a lot of program directors take a look at this as, “If they’re listening to a podcast, they’re not listening to my radio station.” Bottom line.

Brett Johnson: It’s an economy of time; that you only have X amount of hours per day, so if you’re gonna spend it with a podcast, I don’t get you as a PPM, as a portable-people-meter person, and you’re not a listener-

Dino Tripodis: God, don’t get me started on PPM.

Brett Johnson: Right. They’re not seeing it as an extension, a brand extension for the radio station. That’s exactly what I walked out of; exactly what I walked out of, because I was the only one with the instigating, and pushing forward any podcasting there. I leave, and it’s dying on the vine. It’s amazing, and they’re not grabbing a hold of this, and understanding what’s going on with it. That’s partly why I left.

Steve Palmer: It’s almost like Big Tobacco saying, “We’re not gonna vape.”

Brett Johnson: I get calls from businesses who wanna podcast, and I hook up studios. I don’t use radio stations. Why would you not think a business would call the radio station? They have the equipment.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it’s all right there.

Brett Johnson: It’s all right there, but they don’t get the calls, Dino. They don’t get the calls. I get the calls.

Dino Tripodis: Good.

Brett Johnson: It doesn’t make any sense. If you think you’re gonna make a video, you call TV, right?

Dino Tripodis: Yeah..

Brett Johnson: They got the equipment. Radio may have missed the boat. They may have missed the boat.

Dino Tripodis: They’re missing the boat. I think there’s still time for them to get another boat, and swim out to that boat-

Brett Johnson: [inaudible] yeah.

Dino Tripodis: -and get on it, but they are missing the boat, as we speak. Have they missed it completely? I don’t know, because what I … I do see some stations across the country that do embrace it [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Yes, they are. You’re right.

Dino Tripodis: There are some that are embracing the podcasts, and encouraging their personalities, their morning-show personalities, their afternoon, to do them, in addition to whatever they’re doing on the show, to add more layers to who they are, and what they’re all about. I think that’s great.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. In your situation, Steve, as well, I think stations are missing the boat that they’re not training their sales reps to take a look at, “Okay, who on your list of advertisers could be prime for a podcast, outside of what they do?” Just exactly what you do with yours.

Steve Palmer: Sure, yeah.

Brett Johnson: Exactly what you do. That’s where a sales rep can make money.

Steve Palmer: You would think a radio station could bring a lot of value, and force to that equation, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: It’s like, “We’re gonna help you get your podcast … Come to our studio. Just come to this one that’s empty over here. We’ve got the voice processors. It’ll be everything … You don’t have to worry … You can do … ” What held me back, they can supply for people, which is I had trouble getting my head around actually making it happen with the equipment. How do I record? How do I get it up to a podcast? How do I do all these things?

Steve Palmer: In practicality, once you’ve figure it out, it’s doable, but it’s the kind of hurdle that prevents people from doing it. Somebody like you, now, is gonna do it, and help people do it. Radio stations could do that, and then use their station to help you promote it. I think that could generate dollars for a radio station, but what do I know?

Dino Tripodis: How different do you think it is … Let me ask you this. There are people that the radio station will sell time for these shows, where clients come in, and do a half-hour show; basically, they’re just pushing their product.

Brett Johnson: Long-form programming, basically.

Dino Tripodis: They’re usually on a Sunday morning, or a Sunday afternoon. How is that any different?

Brett Johnson: It’s not, other than they’re on 8:00 on Sunday morning, and, at 8:29, the show is gone forever [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -it’s done, and this one … With the podcast, you’re doing it, and then-.

Brett Johnson: Even if it’s repurposing that long-form program, that’s okay, but in real-time radio, it’s gone forever. It’s out in the ether space.

Steve Palmer: That’s a good point … I had to face this in another media, which is the internet. I’m almost 50, now; 48. I’ll be 49 in May-

Dino Tripodis: I got psychological issues I wanna [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: -but I built my law practice the old-fashioned way. I was over … I would go to happy hours, or I would go meet people on a golf course, or doing stuff like this, or just shaking hands, or actually … Frankly, just being good at what we did, at that time, was a huge … That’s what drove business into my doors.

Steve Palmer: Then, there came a time after 2008, particularly, when the market sorta crashed, that everybody in their mother was gonna be a criminal-defense lawyer. What they were good at was internet marketing; they could go grab DUI cases; they could grab the misdemeanor stuff, or even some bigger felony stuff, and get paid some money. People out there didn’t know any better. They would just click, and say, “Oh, this is a good website. I’ll go talk to this guy, and if he or she …” This gal, they got this right sales pitch, they’ll hire ’em. That became a whole different competitive market for me.

Brett Johnson: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I either get along, or go along. You gotta jump on, and start doing it. We had to build a web page; we had to start doing some search-engine stuff just to keep up. It sounds like radio is sort of in that same mode, where the old, and the new are sort of spreading apart here, faster than maybe is healthy.

Steve Palmer: I think, ultimately, that if the target audience, or the target dollars, are people who have them to spend on advertising … Just look at the generation coming up behind us, guys. They’re doing everything online; they’re doing everything digitally; they’re doing everything … They don’t wanna waste time finding a radio show that’s on Sunday morning. They’re gonna just google it, and if it doesn’t show up, it’s gone. Like you said, it’s done. It’s interesting [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: I think there’s still value in terrestrial radio, as far as advertising [cross talk] I’ve heard that death bell so many times, over the last 24 years, and it’s just not true. Terrestrial radio has its place in this communication world, but you’ve got to be aware of what’s coming, and … Not what’s coming, what’s here.

Brett Johnson: I think this was an opportunity … I agree, it’s not gone yet. I get sarcastic with it, but I think Radio has, and had such an opportunity to be in front of the curve for once, with podcasts, and embrace it.

Brett Johnson: Just recently, there was a large conference of podcasters, called Podcast Movement, and it’s been going on … It’s grown by thousands every year, and it’s only about four years old. This year, they invited radio to be a track of, as well, too. Radio was on one side; podcasters on another; the two did not mix. They did not mix, and you heard comments, after the conference that radio people did not wanna talk to podcast people. They had different meet-ups and there was … Again, it’s that red-headed stepchild attitude, overall [cross talk] Like what you said, though, there are some groups that get it, and are moving forward with it, but it’s still that stigma that it’s-.

Dino Tripodis: It’s too bad, because I gotta be honest with you, when I started podcasting, while I was still at the radio station, it actually made me a better broadcaster.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Because, with podcasting, you don’t have the restrictions of time. You can talk at length. You’re not worried about getting to the next stop set of commercials, or the latest Maroon 5 song, whatever the case may be-.

Steve Palmer: Five songs an hour [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, whatever was going on, It made me, when I started doing the podcast when I’m still at station, made me a better interviewer, and consequently, a better broadcaster; also made me think out of the box a little bit more. Yeah, the two definitely … If you’re in radio, and you’re podcasting, you should definitely marry those two together, and become a force, because it only benefits you in the long run.

Brett Johnson: You’ve done the same thing with Lawyer Talk. You’ve had strategy … Even if it’s not really called a strategy meeting, you guys are planning out episodes way in advance … Where do you wanna go? Let’s add an extra one on Friday. Let’s do this. Let’s focus on this … All back toward branding Yavitch & Palmer, bottom line.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. You know what I found? Here’s what’s fascinating to me. Here’s how it works for me. Somebody calls me, I say, “How’d you find me to help you with your drunk-driving case, or your federal drug case, or whatever crime it is?” More, and more, and more, I was hearing, “Well, you know, I heard you on the radio, and I just always thought you’re very honest. You just tell people like it is …”

Dino Tripodis: You cut through.

Steve Palmer: “You just cut through all [cross talk] I looked you up on the internet, and then so-and-so, my buddy, recommended you …” or some other referral source. All of that almost always originated at that radio show. It gave me an opportunity to share who I am, and give people a glimpse of what the experience would be. Not that I’m great, but just everybody’s individual, and you got to see that, as opposed to some web page, or some video, or something that is not so free-flowing.

Steve Palmer: Now, I just thought, I got a podcast. I can do this anytime I want. I can go, “Look, a big issue, there’s a new drunk-driving law. Let’s just go talk about it.” People can hear us talking about it, and if that generates business for me, great; if it doesn’t, great; but, I can do that without, like you said, without restriction. I don’t have to-

Dino Tripodis: I think the other thing you have going for you is something that I always stress to people who are thinking about starting to do podcasts. You have consistency, correct?

Steve Palmer: Yes.

Dino Tripodis: You’re consistent. You put out a product on a regular basis … When I mentioned those 500,000 podcasts that are out there, and only … How many of them are actually active, and regular, and consistent? Not that many, in the big picture. I think consistency is a key to the success of it all, too. You’ve gotta keep putting something out there.

Dino Tripodis: We’ve had more than 75 podcasts, because we’re on our 75th bottle of whiskey.

Steve Palmer: At some point, you’re gonna run out of [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: No, no, no … Are you kidding me? No, Whiskey Business will fall by the wayside before I ever get to every whiskey that is out there.

Steve Palmer: It is a good goal, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it’s a good goal. It’s a good goal. We’ve had a lot of two-parters, and we’ve had what we call Whiskey Shots, when you talk about the consistency. If we can’t get a whole podcast out on any given week, we do something called Whiskey Shots, which are just short little tidbits that are fun to kind of just keep the flow going.

Dino Tripodis: Trust me. We’d finished up our holiday show holiday, a holiday two-parter, in the middle of December, and let that two-parter run through the end of the year. I’m going crazy, because I’ve not done a podcast in … It woulda been three weeks. I’m jonesing to get back on the mic, and do a podcast, cause I feel we’ve been down too long. You know what I mean?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and you do feel like … If you’re not doing something, somebody else is. It’s getting stale, or something else. It’s like a vacuum, man. Something’s filling it up. What surprised me is that it is not easy. You’ve gotta constantly, or I have to, anyway, constantly contemplate what is next; what is going to be the next topic? What’s another thing we can talk about? Because, as much as when I first sat down with Brett, and thought, “I could do a podcast. I could do one every day, if I wanted to.” All right, well, that … You can do your first little run. That’s about two weeks [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: A lot of people forget.

Brett Johnson: That’s exactly how … The end point is about three or four episodes; two weeks.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: It’s done, and they kinda go-

Dino Tripodis: “Whaddya do? You’re in radio, where you talk for like two-three minutes, and then you … That’s all you have to do? Only work like four hours a day?” Like, “Yeah, no …”

Brett Johnson: Right, yeah. Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: I do that. I do talk for two, and three minutes at a time, for four hours a day-

Brett Johnson: But my butt’s here at 4:00 in the morning, prepping for this show-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, 4:00 in the morning, and I’ve been doing it consistently, and well, for 24 years. You’re right, it’s not easy.

Steve Palmer: It’s not easy, and I-

Dino Tripodis: It’s not easy.

Steve Palmer: I have more respect for you guys now than ever, and as I go in every Wednesday, still, and look at Loper, and Randy, and everybody else on that show – what they do … He’s great at it. They’re great at it, but it is not without hard work. They put in their time, and they’ve got their clipboards, and they’ve got … They actually ponder what is gonna happen next. As much as they make it sound like it’s just all easy, and free-flowing, it is not. A lot of work, and effort goes into that from both the right side of the brain, and the left side of the brain. [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Sure. A lot of hard work goes into making something sound, and look easy. People forget that.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Right, exactly. What’s your answer to radio, Dino? You get a radio exec saying, “Okay, we wanna make this podcast thing work.” From your perspective – you’ve been on the air for over 24- 20 years-

Dino Tripodis: How do they wanna make it work it? They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Yeah-

Dino Tripodis: They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Because it always comes down to the dollar. It always does. You know, a radio station group … Whether it’s a standalone station, or a group, they will not do it unless there’s a bottom line to it. How do they do it, from your perspective?

Dino Tripodis: If it goes down to the sales department, you have got to sit down with the salespeople, and drill it in their head somehow that this is a viable product that needs to be sold, just like anything else you sell. I think where some of the salespeople probably …

Dino Tripodis: This is just my opinion, and just my perspective on how it looked like. It looked like, “Oh, I can only sell this for this,” as opposed to spending my time, and selling something bigger for this. They can’t escape what they should do … What they should do, when they’re going after the bigger clients is to also include this podcasting thing with it.

Dino Tripodis: If you wanna to go after your bigger clients, and say that’s where you’re gonna make your nut, as a salary, as a salesperson. Fine. Take this, and be proud of this other little extra thing that we have, in addition to what we’re selling you, to add to the package. Make it an add-on, and explain to them, this is also … “It’s great. I love the fact that you’re advertising on our radio station, but this is actually up and coming, as well, too. Why don’t you be the first to get on this?” Sell it-

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: You’re not selling them a bill of goods. It’s legit, but you have to believe in what you’re selling. You have to believe in what you’re doing, in order to persuade people.

Brett Johnson: I think that we have a generation of sales reps who have not been … You’ve been in radio long enough to know, and I’ve been in it long enough to know, and you have actually enough, too, that host-read commercials are extremely effective.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: That’s what podcasting is kicking butt with. That piece is gone now, because radio has changed itself so much that … Like you said, play your music, three minutes in, get out. Don’t say any more than you have to. There’s no personality to it. I think reps don’t understand that you can sell the product.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: You can sell the product, and they’re not allowing you to do that.

Steve Palmer: Well, you’ve hit on it, when you said believe in what you’re selling.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: You get a podcast host like you … I hear people do it … You hear different people sell … Like a podcast, I’ve heard podcasts say, “Oh, try this toothbrush. Let me tell you about this toothbrush.” Then, they’re gonna spend whatever time they are talking about it, not in a “20 doctors recommend this, this, and this.” This is an organic, me talking about your product, or better yet, come in, and talk about it with me, and give me the highlights, and let us really go.

Steve Palmer: I think you’re right. If you turn that into a value-added service on the radio, or a salesperson come to a guy like me, and say, “Hey, look, Randy and Loper have a podcast, too.” It’s sort of akin to the 15-second spot at midnight. They’re gonna sell somebody that. “We’re gonna throw in five of these at midnight.” Not many people are listening, but you get it. You can even start it that way, but really, it gives somebody like the radio host a lot more freedom to sell your product.

Dino Tripodis: Right. It does. Yeah, because they could actually talk about it for more than 30 seconds.

Brett Johnson: Right. We’ve lost a generation of sales reps that have experienced radio, when it was doing that on air. I think that’s the missed connection, because sales reps don’t even know that it could happen.

Dino Tripodis: Right. When I left the station, I had a ton of personal endorsements, which were great. Probably, if I would’ve stayed, there’d be more, because people were starting to … They wanted me talking about going out to the Player’s Grill for 60 seconds, or whatever the case might be, as opposed to just running a commercial. Yeah, it is … It’s right there. They should add it on.

Dino Tripodis: At least start that way. Then, when it becomes a bigger thing, which it will, then you can branch off, and say, “You can either do it here on the radio station, or you could do it on our very successful podcast.” They both feed off of each other, and I think that’s what they need to realize.

Steve Palmer: How did it work for deejays? I imagine this, as a lawyer. I’m thinking contracts. If I’m a deejay, and I’m brought in from wherever to come in and host of The Morning Drive, or The Afternoon Drive, and I just start … I have my own podcast already going, or I’m gonna start my own podcast. I just see, eventually, conflict there, where a guy like you is gonna be, “All right. Hey, I already got my podcast. How much of a piece of the radio- or is a radio station gonna try to take of that in the contract negotiations, and where does that all fall out?”.

Dino Tripodis: I think that’s an interesting … That’s a very interesting point, because that’s where I will be if … My non-compete was up, late November of 2018. If I decide to pursue other radio options, I have this podcast that goes with me. Now, there are certain radio companies who are embracing the podcast world a little bit more; are into streaming a great bit, in a huge way, and stream their stations all across the country.

Dino Tripodis: I’m aware of the fact that some of those companies would take Whiskey Business, and do something with it. How do I negotiate the monies? That’s another conversation for another time. Yeah, there is something in there. Now, I also consider it to be kind of an extra thing that I’m bringing with me.

Steve Palmer: You bet … If I’m representing you, and negotiating for you, I’m thinking to myself, “All right, this guy’s been in radio for 25 years; done his podcast for five years. He’s got this business, this business, and this business who are paying him regularly to just be on, and talk about their products, or do whatever.” Now, when you bring that to the table, you’re … I don’t know sales in radio, but I do know this – it’s all about finding the business, right? [cross talk] The lead is everything.

Dino Tripodis: Radio sales have local clients, and they also have national clients – national dollars – that they go after, as well. Yeah-.

Steve Palmer: You’re bringing leads to the table. You oughta get paid out on that.

Dino Tripodis: You can. It can be very profitable. I was always envious of the really successful salespeople at the radio station, because they were making twice as much as I was making-

Steve Palmer: Sure, sure.

Dino Tripodis: -in sales. They were making it … When they would bring me personal endorsements, I knew that they were making twice as much as I was making, but that’s fine. You’re good at what you do. Just take it to the next level, or add this on to it, and you’ll make more money.

Steve Palmer: Right.

Brett Johnson: … I walk into agreements with the new podcasters. In my contract with them is I don’t want that audio content when our contract ends. What am I gonna do with it? It’s done. When we part ways, it’s all yours. I’ll give it to you. It’s in a Dropbox; boom, go with it. Work with the next person, or maybe the podcast dies; whatever it might be. I don’t want any of it. Radio stations may be a little quirky about that, that it’s … I think a deejay/on-air personality has to really walk into it really, really smart.

Steve Palmer: If I’m negotiating from [cross talk] from a perspective of a talent guy going into a radio, I would be very cautious, because you walk in – you start using their mics, start using their recording devices, their processors, their bricks and mortar, and you’re gonna record your own podcast, you gotta be careful who owns it. At some juncture, if it takes off, and I think they will, there’s gonna be a lot of lawsuits on where the money goes [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -interesting. I’ll be aware of that, when I get myself in that situation, if I get in that situation, but I don’t … Once again, I will stress this: radio stations, you’re listening. You want your jocks to be engaged in social media. You want them on Facebook. You want them on Instagram. You want them on Twitter. This is … Right there, it’s in that same wheelhouse of exposure. Embrace the podcast, as well as all those other things, as well.

Brett Johnson: All right. You look at it as a business, Steve. How do you approach it, if you’re [inaudible] radio advertiser, are looking at possibly starting a podcast, but also use radio. What advice would you give?

Steve Palmer: In other words. if I am looking to do my own podcast, and get my brand out there in one form or another, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: I was lucky in a lot of ways, in that I got to hone my skill, so to speak, on air, in dealing with stuff coming at me on the fly. My profession being a trial lawyer sort of gives me somewhat of a skill set that I practice regularly on that, but it was very helpful to see the inside of the radio station, understand what a microphone is, and then, how to talk on the microphone, and get comfortable with that.

Steve Palmer: To do your own podcast is not necessarily easy. Even I was worried … Not even I, but I was worried when I started. I was like, “I think I can keep it going …” I guess my first bit of advice is don’t think it’s easy to go do your own podcast, but if you’re gonna go advertise on the radio, what has worked for me was being on the radio. It’s not just saying … Not having somebody read my spots; not have somebody record, and hit play 10 times a day, alone. It was me having my personality on radio.

Steve Palmer: Now, if you can’t do that, a podcast is a great way to do it. I would say start with other podcasters; start by doing what we’re doing around this table, in the sense that you can get comfortable on a microphone; comfortable having people talk to you; comfortable talking to people. Then, use that for training wheels for your own podcast. Then, have a niche, and enjoy it.

Steve Palmer: I would be careful now with my dollars. If I’m going to a radio station to say, “I wanna advertise with you,” and they give me a price tag, I’d be very careful with my dollars on that, right now. I never saw it as that being the product that I wanted. I wanted my personality to be reflected somehow on the air. I guess that’s my advice. I would be cautious with going to radio, and doing traditional advertising, at least as a small business.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and I’d have to agree. It pains me. I got into radio because I love the audio medium, and the influence it has on us. Radio has changed in my 30 years. When I first started [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -mine, as well.

Brett Johnson: -basically same era. It’s a totally different beast, right now, than it was, and it’s kinda what drove me out of it, because it just, it’s not the same. If I wanna listen to music, I’ll go to Spotify. I don’t have to listen to a radio station to really listen to it. I hate saying that, but that’s just … It’s come to the realization … If I wanna be entertained, I’ll listen to a podcast. I’ll find a podcast that’ll entertain me, and inform me. I think you’re right. Be careful what you do. You gotta be really careful with the dollars, and such. Do some homework. Do some homework.

Dino Tripodis: Again, I’m not defending radio, but radio is still a great avenue to advertise on.

Brett Johnson: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It’s effective. It’s effective, but, yeah, sure, be cautious, and see where exactly … How can I maximize these dollars?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and I don’t mean to be too critical of radio, either. I love it.

Brett Johnson: I do, too.

Steve Palmer: I loved going on that show. Here’s what I have learned, though. The other side of my coin is this – a lot of people listened to me on Wednesdays, on that radio show, and there’s a lot of listeners out there not listening to podcasts, between those hours that I’m on, listening to that show …

Steve Palmer: The other bit of wisdom I have is don’t sell that short, either. There’s still a lot of value there. I guess I came into it from that end, not the spend money on advertising end. I got here first, then I spent money on advertising, and they worked together. This is sorta where we started.

Steve Palmer: Going the opposite, I don’t know that I ever would have done it. I don’t know that I ever would have been sold by a radio salesperson saying, “You, as this lawyer, can make a lotta money in return for advertising your spots on the radio.” Now, I’m not saying that’s not true. I might have been able to do it, but I don’t think I necessarily would have been sold on that. I would not have gotten my head around that, particularly in the internet age, and everything else.

Steve Palmer: I think being mindful of what’s coming up behind us … This generation of consumers is different than what I have ever seen, and what I think most of people older have ever seen. We’ve never seen anything like it. Everything’s done online. Everything is done quick, quickly. Everything is … You’re going to Spotify. They’re not gonna listen; they’re not gonna find their music necessarily on the air. It’s gonna be found where they want it [cross talk] and where it saved, or wherever it is. I don’t know what it all … I don’t know what it’s all about, but I would encourage anybody to podcast. It’s a blast.

Brett Johnson: Exactly, exactly.

Dino Tripodis: It is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. Like I said, I think it’s made me a better broadcaster. It’s made me a far better interviewer. That skill has increased tenfold just from doing the podcast.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, there’s a lot to learn from it, that’s for sure. I think we’ve answered the world problems.

Dino Tripodis: Have we?

Brett Johnson: I think so. I think so. This is where I wanted to go with it, though. Thank you for the discussion. Finally nice to really meet you [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Likewise.

Brett Johnson: I meant to ask you, too, you’re doing some live stuff, too. I know Steve and I have kicked around, trying to get Lawyer Talk live on stage. You were at the Podcast Festival.

Dino Tripodis: I was at the Podcast Festival, and we had a blast doing that. If you can get on-board with that this year when it rolls around, do.

Steve Palmer: Absolutely, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Since I also come from a comedic background, comic background, I’ll be talking with The Funny Bone, here in Columbus. We’re going to do a Whiskey Business podcast comedy show.

Brett Johnson: Oh, sweet.

Dino Tripodis: Basically, it will be I’ll introduce the podcast; I’ll have a comedian come up, and do 15 minutes; then he’ll do 15 minutes with me. Almost like a talk show, like a variety show, but it’ll be the podcast. He’ll podcast with me for 15 minutes. We’ll do that with three comedians. They’ll go up, do 15, and then, sit down at me for 15, and then, so forth, and so on.

Dino Tripodis: Once again, from the technical arena, do we stream that live? Is it just recorded for later? Don’t know, but … Do we bring in video cameras? I have the capability, because we’re also filmmakers. I mentioned John Whitney, and myself … We’re filmmakers, as well, so we were in that world, too. We have the lights, and the equipment to do all that stuff, if we need to do it. How do we structure it? I don’t know. I just wanna get butts in the seats, and make that happen, so that it’s successful.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Doing the live stuff is-

Steve Palmer: It’s a whole new world.

Dino Tripodis: It’s a shot of adrenaline. Now, I come from a live-performance background, doing stand up, so that was my first big thing in radio was, “I can’t hear the laughter. I don’t know if they’re laughing. I can’t hear the laughter.” I dig that. I dig that live, spontaneous-.

Steve Palmer: Well, there’s an adrenaline … That’s like trying cases. You would be good at it, probably.

Dino Tripodis: My mother always wanted me to be a lawyer.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you did the right thing.

Dino Tripodis: Yes, she wanted to be a lawyer. She always said, when I got outta trouble, “You’d be a good defense lawyer.”

Steve Palmer: There you go. There you go. No, there is adrenaline rush, being live without a net. It’s what you’re doing, right? I couldn’t imagine. Stand up would scare the bejesus outta me, man. I would be like … I don’t think I could do it.

Brett Johnson: It’s like going out there naked.

Dino Tripodis: I’ve always made this joke to my attorney friends; I’ve always said, obviously, it’s too late for me to go to law school, but if I had … What’s one thing you wanna do before you die? I said, “I would like to do the closing argument. I would like to be the closer. I would like to come up … I would like to, after everything’s going on, do the closing argument. Talk to the jury – that that speech to the jury. I wanna do a closing argument. I wanna say, ‘Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I’m not really a lawyer, but, is this case really about the law?'”

Steve Palmer: Not at that point, it isn’t.

Brett Johnson: He could give you insight on that [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: It’s never about the law.

Dino Tripodis: -I wanna close. I wanna close.

Brett Johnson: Oh, man … Steve, thank you for jumping on at the last minute. Once I knew [cross talk] I knew we could bring three different perspectives on radio, and podcasting, and obviously we just, we scratched the surface, but it’s just our-.

Dino Tripodis: Do you drink whiskey?

Steve Palmer: Not anymore. I am now three years without alcohol.

Dino Tripodis: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I just liked it a lot. I never got in trouble, or I never had any issues, but, one day, I just woke up, and thought, “I don’t think I’m gonna drink alcohol anymore,” and I’ve never looked back; but I did love whiskey.

Dino Tripodis: Well, we’ve had guests that do not imbibe on Whiskey Business, so, I’d be very … We should cross-pollinate here on the podcast-

Steve Palmer: Let’s do it, for sure.

Dino Tripodis: -and get you on Whiskey. You do not have to drink. In fact, that just means more for us.

Brett Johnson: It’d mess with your keto diet, anyway, right? [cross talk] Yeah exactly.

Dino Tripodis: -does that work?

Steve Palmer: Oh, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Does it work?

Steve Palmer: I feel great, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: How long you been on it?

Steve Palmer: Almost a month now.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah?

Steve Palmer: Let me tell you, I feel awesome; almost euphorically awesome … There’s a point of euphoria, where you just feel like you can conquer the world early on. Then, you just sort of realize the little things. I was hunting over the weekend – it’s muzzle-loader season – I was out hunting, and I was hiking up this huge hill; had my 12-year-old, or soon to be 12-year-old son with me. I said, “We gotta climb up that hill.” He’s huffing air, and doing a … I walked up there. I felt great. It’s not that I’m exercising a lot, or doing anything like that; just my joints feel better; I rest better; my sleep is better; my awake time is better; everything is just working better without really …. If you could just say … Everybody would agree with this – don’t eat a lot of sugar.

Dino Tripodis: Right. I agree with that.

Steve Palmer: Don’t eat a lot of processed carbohydrates-

Dino Tripodis: Processed foods, yeah.

Steve Palmer: That’s great. If you cut those things outta your life, you’ll feel a lot better.

Brett Johnson: Except …

Dino Tripodis: You gotta cut whiskey, too, right?

Steve Palmer: No, you could work that in.

Dino Tripodis: You could work that in? [cross talk] Maybe I’ll give it a shot.

Steve Palmer: Yeah …

Dino Tripodis: I can deal without the excessive sugars, the processed sugars, and some of the carbohydrates, but, I’m a man who cannot live without his bread [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I get you. I get you.

Dino Tripodis: Anyway, we’re going down rabbit holes, since you talked about [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: That’s okay. It’s not a problem at all. Thank you both for being part of Note to Future Me.

Steve Palmer: All right, thank you.

Dino Tripodis: Our pleasure, thank you.

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In this episode, I’m taking a sidestep. I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast Whiskey Business and former long time morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast Lawyer Talk: Off The Record, and owner and partner at the law firm of Yavitch and Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Okay, now you’re thinking what do we three have in common…

Radio and podcasting.

Dino, of course, with his years on-air and his podcast. Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast and has been a radio advertiser and a part of a morning radio call-in show on WRKZ 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. And I’m a 35 year plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time. And I have two great guests to talk about how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light.

We three have different viewpoints coming from three different perspectives and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Brett Johnson is the owner and lead consultant at Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. With over 35+ years of experience in Marketing, Content Creation, Audio Production/Recording and Broadcasting, the podcast consultants at Circle270Media strategically bring these strengths together for their business Podcast clients.

Subscribe to my free daily Open The Mic Newsletter at www.circle270media.com. It’s chock full of podcast news you may have missed, as well as social media, sales, and audio production tips, and insights on how to grow your business podcast.

If your business is using podcasting as a marketing or branding tool, I would love to showcase your podcast. Go to www.notetofutureme.com and scroll down to my booking calendar. Email us at podcasts@circle270media.com to set up time to talk more about your new or established business podcast.