Radio, Podcasting and Sponsorships

Podcasting, Radio, And Sponsors (transcribed by Sonix)

Brett Johnson: From Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, located in downtown Columbus, Ohio, this is Note to Future Me. I'm Brett Johnson, owner of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. Note to Future Me is dedicated to interviewing businesses, and organizations who have implemented podcasting into their marketing strategy, but, in this episode, I'm taking a sidestep.

Brett Johnson: I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast, Whiskey Business, and former longtime morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast, Lawyer Talk, and owner, and partner at the law firm of Yavitch & Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Brett Johnson: Okay, now you're thinking what do we three have in common? Radio, and podcasting. Dino, of course, with his years on air, and his podcast; Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast, and has been a radio advertiser, and has been a part of a morning radio call-in show on 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. I'm a 35-year-plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

Brett Johnson: I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time, and I have two great guests to talk about it – how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light about podcasting. We three have different viewpoints, coming from three different perspectives, and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus. I think you're gonna enjoy this insider's view. As always, thanks for taking notes with me.

Brett Johnson: As you've heard in my past episodes, I've gone the theme of businesses, and podcasting. This episode, I wanna kinda take a sidebar. With my background in radio, as you well know, as a listener of my podcast, I wanna occasionally address the radio, and podcasting theme – its weaknesses; its strengths; its existence at all, if nothing else.

Brett Johnson: I thought this episode would be great to do because I've got two radio experts; generals.

Dino Tripodis: You do?

Brett Johnson: I do [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I was like, "Okay, we're here. When are the other guys coming?"

Brett Johnson: We've got Dino Tripodis, who is, first off, the host of Whiskey Business podcast – I'm gonna give the podcast a vote of confidence, first – as well as a former morning show co-host for a local radio station in Columbus, Ohio, WSNY Sunny 95; as well as Steve Palmer, who is the owner of law firm Yavitch & Palmer, and … You kinda go, "Attorney? What's the deal?" Well, anyway, he is the host of the Lawyer Talk: Off the Record podcast, as well as a longtime radio advertiser on a local station in Columbus. The Blitz, 99.7 FM.

Brett Johnson: I think we all three can bring three different perspectives to radio, and podcasting that I want to explore. I have my opinion. I know Dino has his. I know Steve has his.

Steve Palmer: Uh-huh.

Brett Johnson: I think it should be fun. Let's, though, go this route, first. Give a little bit about your background, Dino, in regards to what you've done with your life up until this point, as well as how the Whiskey Business podcast came about.

Dino Tripodis: What have I done with my life? That's a good question. You know what? I think my mother asked me that same question just a week ago. "What have you done with your life?" 24 years, that's 1995 … It was the only radio job I had ever had.

Dino Tripodis: I came into it as a comedian doing stand-up. I was a guest on their show as a comedian, and then … I'll skip a lot of the minutia, but there was an opening to work there as a co-host with another gentleman who, at the time, was hosting the show – Bob Simpson. I reluctantly took the job, thinking this is gonna be one of those 'It's nice when he visits. It's not gonna be so nice when he's there all the time' situations. That show was good, but didn't work.

Dino Tripodis: The following year, they let Mr. Simpson go, and I thought they were gonna let myself, and Stacy McKay go, as well, at the end of the year, because that happened in October. Come January, they sat us down and said, "We'd like you to be the new morning show." Once again I thought, "Okay, they'll come to their senses, and realize they made a horrible mistake." 24 years later, I was still there, but I did leave in June of 2018 [cross talk] 24 great years. Great station. Just a great run.

Brett Johnson: The Whiskey Business podcast came about through that time period, then, too, right?

Dino Tripodis: Well, Sunny 95, or Saga Communications, Columbus Radio Group, whatever you wanna call them, started to see that podcasting was becoming a thing, and digital media was becoming a thing, as well. They started to hop on it, and wanted to take advantage of the opportunities that were in there, in respects to sales, and making money.

Dino Tripodis: They approached Stacy, first – she does a podcast called Momcast, which is very popular, and very good – and they asked me if I wanted to do a podcast. At first, I said, "Ehhh, I don't know." I thought, okay, if I did one, what would it be? What do I like? What do I know? We came up with Whiskey Business, which I did not want it to be a podcast about whiskey, so much as it … That's our tagline, "Not so much a podcast about whiskey as it is one with whiskey.".

Dino Tripodis: The only running theme in our podcast is we share a different bottle of whiskey every week, with a different guest. We don't claim to be experts in whiskey. There are far more knowledgeable men, and women out there who know their whiskey than I do, but we do learn a little bit about the bottle. Then, what's really fun is the conversations that we have. Our guests run from A to Z, as far as topics. We've had lawyers on the show. We've had a couple of attorneys.

Steve Palmer: All right.

Dino Tripodis: Three of 'em … I said two. Three. I think you probably know 'em all.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I think I do. We talked a little bit off the air about that before we were recording, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they've all had … One of 'em has a podcast, as well. Alex Hastie.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Alex is a friend of mine, and he's been on our podcast.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, Ohio v. the World.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Great podcast, actually [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: He's been on ours three times. Yeah, small world, smaller city, I always like to say.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. Correct.

Steve Palmer: Columbus is one of those cities where, if you just start poking around, sooner or later, you're gonna find people that know people that know people that know you, and the chains get smaller, and smaller.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, there's like three degrees of separation, as opposed to the classic six [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Exactly.

Brett Johnson: Steve, let's talk a little bit about how you got into doing the podcast, but also your history with advertising with The Blitz, and how it all kinda transitioned into where you are today.

Steve Palmer: I'm really just a criminal defense lawyer [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, "just" a criminal defense lawyer?

Steve Palmer: What's interesting is in the back that you were talking about Blazer, and I started going on The Blitz with Blazer and Mo, years ago. This is about 2006 or '07. My partner, who's now deceased, Eric Yavitch, he was cruising home one day, or cruising into the office, one day, and there was … Actually in, because it was morning.

Steve Palmer: Here's Mo griping about getting a speeding ticket in the city of Dublin. It was classic Mo shtick, where he was, "Black man in Dublin. Here I go. Now, they're gonna get me. What I need is a good Jewish lawyer. I gotta get …" Yavitch, who was my partner at the time, calls him, and says, "I'll represent you for free.".

Steve Palmer: That spawned a couple phone calls. Next thing I know, we're going into the station to talk about representing Mo in a speeding ticket, and we had a charity going on. We were gonna sell some raffle tickets for a charity. We walked in, and I remember … I think it was Blazer came up, and said, "You guys wanna do maybe a little phone-in question-and-answer legal advice?" I said, "Well, sure. Why not?"

Brett Johnson: Why not?

Steve Palmer: Next thing I know, here I am a decade later … I've been doing that same phone-in show weekly, now, for almost 10 years now. It went off the air while The Blitz took their hiatus. The morning show for-

Brett Johnson: The 'old Coke/new Coke' experiment, right?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, they changed brands a couple times, and then came back. Ultimately, after I bounced around to QFM, and then … I think I even … Yeah, I went over to CD101 for a while. That was a failure. Then I ended up back at The Blitz, and here we are.

Steve Palmer: Along those lines, what I thought …Here's what I started doing about radio advertising. I never cared about it, to be perfectly blunt. I just … It didn't make any sense to me. I never understood it. I never thought I would hire a lawyer who's got a commercial on the radio. What happened is when I started doing that phone-in legal advice, people started calling me; "Hey, you're the guy on a radio.".

Dino Tripodis: Well, it becomes … You take it a step further, where you actually become now just … You're more than just a radio commercial, you've, whether you realize it or not, become a personality.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet.

Dino Tripodis: That's far more identifiable than just a spot on the radio.

Steve Palmer: Yep, and you guys know that from your … I didn't even … No experience with radio or doing anything … In fact, I used to be scared to death to walk in there-

Brett Johnson: Me either.

Steve Palmer: It was probably the same thing, like when you just [inaudible] "Hey, you wanna be on our show?" It was like, "Sure. How does this work?" Now, I get to the point where, every few weeks, I'll be checking out at Kroger, or I had one time at Harbor Freight, and somebody says, "Do I know you?" Here I am, wearing a ball cap backwards. I've been working in my yard; I'm sweaty; I'm whatever, and I'm like, "I don't think so. I don't …" and she, "Are you on the radio?" I was like, " Well, yeah, yeah, I happen …" "You're that lawyer on the radio!"

Steve Palmer: That's where the advertising component shakes hands with me being on, but whether … I always looked at the advertising as an opportunity for me to be on the air, and share my personality – who I am, how I do things. That is the best advertising I've got, as far as radio goes.

Dino Tripodis: There's other attorneys who have radio spots, but don't you think, because you do that phone-in, and that segment, that it elevates you a little bit?

Steve Palmer: Yeah-.

Dino Tripodis: Because that's how I think it transfers, or translates into the mind of the consumer. "Well, yeah, I heard a lawyer spot for that guy, but this guy actually has a show."

Steve Palmer: Yeah. "He's on the radio." I think it sort of reinforces the brand. The radio spots are usually my voice, so it reinforces my voice, and it works only because I've got both [cross talk] and it works well.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: With all due respect, you have a good voice. Over the 24 years that I've did radio, there'll be clients that would wanna voice their own spots, and I'm like, "Okay … That's not really a good idea."

Brett Johnson: Right. Exactly.

Steve Palmer: Right, right, right …

Dino Tripodis: But you, you have a good voice.

Steve Palmer: Well, thank you, yeah …

Brett Johnson: With your gig on the air, you're the first one that'll defer: "I'll get you in contact with somebody. I don't know the answer to that," or, "I'll take a good stab here, but you need to call …" That is cred, beyond belief.

Steve Palmer: I learned this a long time ago is that … I learned at the dinner table, where, if you don't know, you say you don't know, and you become intelligent, or smart, when you realize you don't know anything. What I do is really all about problem-solving, and I look at my job that way.

Steve Palmer: If somebody calls in, I don't act like a know-it-all if I don't know it. I just say, "Listen, here's what I think is going on; let's put you in touch with the right person. You need a roof, we'll get you a roofer; you need some plumbing, we'll get you a plumber; you need a lawyer that does probate, we'll get that person."

Steve Palmer: I think that does … If there's young lawyers listening, you should follow this advice: understand what you don't know, and it's okay not to know. You don't you don't need to know everything. That's the trick, and then, focus on solving the problem, however that is.

Brett Johnson: Let's talk about how you got started with podcast, then, which … I love this story.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, we would come … I said for years … Remember when reality TV hit? This is back in, what, the mid-late '90s. All the sudden, all these reality TV shows … Eric Yavitch, and I were sitting in our office, and we said, "We oughta have a reality TV show," because we get back from court, and we're just spent. It's that slap-happy time of the day, when you start just doing funny stuff. I thought, "Man, a reality show would love this.".

Steve Palmer: Then, when I started doing the radio show, I thought, "Man, I'd love to have my own radio show," and I said, sort of rhetorically, "Man, if I could just have … If I could just make a living doing radio, I would do that." Jeff Linn, who now has been with me for a long time, is a of the next generation. He listens to Rogan, and all these podcasts. I said, "Podcast? What the hell is that?" I do the radio show …

Dino Tripodis: It's the future …

Steve Palmer: It's the future.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: He said we oughta do a podcast, so I thought, "Well, all right. One of these days, we'll do one." Well, Brett, you're sitting outside the studio one time after … On a Wednesday-

Brett Johnson: Like a vulture [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: He's a vulture. He's got of stack of these Circle-something cards. We started talking about podcasts, and I said, "Yeah, that's funny, because I've been … Jeff Linn, my guy, we've been talking about doing this now for months …" That's the thing is that I didn't have the, I guess … I didn't have the knowledge to actually push it over the goal line. I could talk about it; I could do it, but I was somewhere on the 50-yard line. The thought of actually figuring out how to record something [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, I'm with you there. If not for an excellent producer, yeah, there'd be no Whiskey Business.

Steve Palmer: It's a confusing, complicated mess, and then, getting it to podcast land? I didn't even know what that was. Now, I've heard people trying to write apps for Apple, and I'm like, "That doesn't … That's impossible. You can't do that." It was your expertise, Brett, that sort of gave us that push to get it actually started, and going.

Brett Johnson: All right. Then, Dino was asking about "Okay, studio looks great, down here. How'd this start up?" Talk about the development of the 511 Studios, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, what is this little-

Steve Palmer: Yeah, this little oasis-

Dino Tripodis: -niche of audio nirvana doing down here in this legal building?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you walked into my law office, and then, I'd bring you down to this little- this studio. We were doing the podcast at a conference table in my office upstairs. I bought the building a couple years ago from my mentor, a guy named Bill Meeks, who's passed away, but …

Steve Palmer: As we did this podcast, I bought a microphone. I thought, "All right, I've spent what I need to spend." I bought a microphone. I got this … Maybe I'll do it on my phone, and record digitally. Then, I bought a better digital recorder. Then, I bought another microphone, and then I bought another microphone-.

Dino Tripodis: It's crack.

Steve Palmer: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It's audio crack.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and all the time, he's asking me, "What do you think about this?" It's like, "Yeah, if you wanna go that direction, that's really good stuff. If you wanna do that, that's okay. You'll love …" We get kicking around, and he wants to look at these AVs. I said, "I got one. I'll bring it down. You can listen to A.B. … Do the A.B. test …" He plugs this bad boy in; he goes, "I'm sold" [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: At the radio, you go to … There's a certain sound, and you guys know this better than I, but I had no idea that there was a sound associated, and by sound, I mean a mix, or whatever the hell it is, associated with on-air radio/broadcast radio.

Steve Palmer: I got addicted to that, and headphones over at the studio, over at 99.7, and I just … Anything short of that, in my own podcast, seemed inadequate.

Brett Johnson: Uh-huh. I guess so.

Steve Palmer: Brett comes down … He's over, and Brett … We come down here in the basement, in this room. and there's chairs stacked … Literally, chairs [cross talk] I bought the building furnished. I needed a place to store all the crap, so there's chairs stacked to the ceiling, and we're … I said, "Yeah, I'm thinking about maybe building a studio down here."

Steve Palmer: One thing led to another. I put this … I put paneling up. I got the right kind of sound stuff. I started building acoustical panels. We bought monitors; bought a mixing board. I didn't like that, so I bought another one. I got these amps, so I needed pre-amps to run- or these mics. I needed pre-amps to run the mics. Then, we thought, "Well, we might as well have the ability to put it on TV."

Dino Tripodis: Sure! Why not? Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Now, we can do streaming. We've got five cameras mounted that are around our little roundtable here that everybody can be on a camera at all times; we can mix the video for people …

Dino Tripodis: We just started doing YouTube videos, as well. Not as sophisticated as these five mounted cameras; we have two GoPro cameras that are filming myself, and my guest. Then, I wanted to do a little shout out, if I can, please, to my Producer, Greg Hansberry, who I'd be lost without, and also the producer of our YouTube videos, Director John Whitney, who is a filmmaker-collaborator, and just wanted to join in on the fun. He edits down the YouTube videos, as well.

Dino Tripodis: We went from the studio at Sunny, when we had the podcast over there, and now we go … We're at my house, and we have some of that equipment, that early equipment, that seems to suffice for us, right now. But this … This … I don't … There's also something to be said, and like I said, it comes down to a great producer. They mix it really well, and do a great job with it.

Dino Tripodis: There's something about the ambiance of doing it from my home. It's in my bar, and there's just something very comfortable about the atmosphere of it. I think I think we would lose something now, if we left that particular place, now. Could I make it more sound-pleasing? Probably. I could probably do some things. We did one in the basement one time, too, which, Hansberry immediately said, "Ah, the acoustics down here are even better. We should do it down here all the time." I'm like, "Whatever. I don't know …" but, yeah-

Steve Palmer: I just- I'm the talent, right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I don't know. Talk to him … Plus, as far as how it sounds, you probably have the benefit of a better ear … Brett, you're probably hearing-deficient, on some level, in one of these ears, after all your years of radio.

Brett Johnson: A little bit; a little bit [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I know I am for sure.

Steve Palmer: Really?

Dino Tripodis: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Steve Palmer: Wow, okay.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, sometimes, it's conveniently so [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: You said what? Huh?

Dino Tripodis: Sometimes, it's actual. Yeah, this is great. This is great.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, it's a neat place, and you know what happens down here; it's become a think tank for us. It's become a place where not only do we record our show, but we … I talk about stuff down here, whether it's being recorded or not. We solve problems down here. This is my little escape in the middle of the day to come down, and either record a show, hang out, or do whatever … Stuff like we're doing right now. I love it down here. I don't regret any of it. The only thing I can think is how can I make it better?

Brett Johnson: Right. Right.

Steve Palmer: I'm always thinking about that.

Brett Johnson: Right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Talk to the two radio guys. We have ways [cross talk].

Brett Johnson: Exactly. There you go.

Steve Palmer: It sounds like I need your production team. I got all this fancy equipment; I don't know how to use it.

Dino Tripodis: You got a lotta fancy equipment.

Brett Johnson: Right. What kind of support did you get – we talked a little bit before we recorded – from the radio station group. I know they approached you; they wanted you to do one. From that day forward, "Yep, I'm cool; I'm gonna do this …" What kinda support did you get from them? I mean, frustrations, and good, and bad. Talk about that.

Dino Tripodis: First of all, they gave me carte blanche, as far as content. There wasn't any what I like to call 'Sunny restrictions.'

Brett Johnson: Sure, yeah, right … You weren't on air with it.

Dino Tripodis: I was not air. Yes, this is on the internet. We didn't have to worry so much about content, language, et cetera, et cetera. Supportive in that they ran spots for the podcast on a regular basis, and, once again, part of that was, when we had sponsors, they kinda had to.

Dino Tripodis: I think where they dropped the ball was in sales. I don't know … If there are salespeople in radio that might be listening to this, you need to embrace the future, which is digital media, and find a way to sell it. If it seems like it's a small-potatoes package to sell to one person for X amount, it's not.

Dino Tripodis: I'm sorry if it's not Giant Eagle, or Kroger, or one of the big car dealerships, where you're gonna make a lot of money, but you need to wrap your head around the fact that it's not going anywhere. In fact, it's growing as we speak. By not trying to sell it, you're missing out on dollars. You are, personally; so is your radio station.

Dino Tripodis: There's a lot of money to be made in digital media from an advertising perspective, and I think that's where they … I won't say they didn't support it, but I don't think they went at it as aggressively as they could have. I think the salespeople could not wrap their heads around this small little thing, where you just talk about whatever you want, and that's it. It goes out on the internet, and it's not on the radio. It's not actually on the radio.

Steve Palmer: You're not a big boy. You just got your little basement thing, but … Here, I think your words of wisdom are really, really true. That is they better jump on board, or somebody like me will, or somebody with a studio here will do it. Because having spent a lot of dollars on radio advertising, I see it both ways.

Steve Palmer: I can see that, all right, if you're the big boy … I don't know what the big boys would spend. I don't know what a big car dealership would spend on the radio, as far as advertising, but it's a monthly fee, I suspect, and it's probably high. Then, you get to a point where what is the return on that?

Steve Palmer: If you could get the same return on a popular podcast, for half the money, eventually, the big boys are gonna start bailing. They're gonna go over to the podcast land. I sort of see it like maybe, not only the radio advertiser, or the salespeople, but maybe even the radio stations, themselves, better start thinking how to … They should start cashing in on some of those dollars.

Dino Tripodis: I get it, too. It's the blinders mentality. You don't know how … You can; you can find out how many people are listening to your podcast, but, the fact that there are X amount of radio stations in Columbus, Ohio, compared to the literally thousands of podcasts, hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are out there, and available to consume …

Dino Tripodis: I can see where an advertiser might go, "Well, how are we gonna cut through … There's 500,000 podcasts out there." Yeah, well, there are, but really, there's really only 200,000 of those who are actually active on a regular basis, and then, only 50 percent of those are actually good. The number starts to get down to a smaller amount.

Dino Tripodis: If you take that model, and you break it down to what's available, here in Columbus, as far as a local advertiser, and the fact, if you can convince 'em it's just not going out to Columbus, it's going out everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: Sure, you might have listeners in Columbus that are dedicated listeners that will … Good, but your name, your brand, is going everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet, and what does that correspond with? Internet sales, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: It's like the brick-and-mortar store is not so important anymore. Even car dealers. I was shopping for cars recently, and I realized quickly I wasn't looking at a dealership in central Ohio at all. It was somewhere outta state. They were marketing all over, because … It didn't seem weird to me to go travel somewhere to buy a car, and that's not even mail order. If I got a mail-order product, or any product I can ship, a podcast is limitless, as far as who you can reach. It really is limitless, if you get a good one.

Steve Palmer: I'm curious. You were a professional deejay, and then you make a shift to podcast. Did you catch any flack in the business, that way? Do people think, "All right, now you're just a podcaster; you're not a professional …" How many people are making that transition?

Dino Tripodis: I don't know. As far as what people think – is podcasting some sort of-

Steve Palmer: It's a lesser-

Dino Tripodis: -lesser bastard child [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Retirement home for-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, where you go-

Brett Johnson: -for on-air personalities …

Dino Tripodis: "Oh, when you're done with radio, you go into a podcasting.".

Brett Johnson: Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: There's some truth to that, because, as I mentioned before, it seems like everybody's got a podcast.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: I make a joke that the sixth-grader that lives down the street from me has a podcast about boy bands, and bracelets, and has more listeners than I do. I mean, it seems like everybody's got a podcast. By the same token, no, I don't think … I haven't gotten any flack about it being lesser than, mainly because I think I was doing it while I was on the air.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: When I first started, the first solid year and a half, they were married hand-in-hand. It was my choice to take the podcast with me, when I left. That was one of the arrangements that I made, for lack of a better word, that I wanted to take the podcast, and all the proprietary rights, and all the intellectual property that's associated with Whiskey Business with me, because I wanted to possibly take it a step further. Since they weren't really doing anything with it, sales-wise, it seemed like, "Eh, let him have it."

Brett Johnson: Right. Yep.

Steve Palmer: I think eventually that … Well, I heard this, Brett, that Howard Stern was sort of jesting a little bit about Rogan's podcast, like, "Aw, he's just … He's a podcaster."

Brett Johnson: Really?

Steve Palmer: Howard Stern's been the radio guru forever. He's made tons of money doing it. Then, he shifted to satellite radio, or digital, whatever that's called now. Then, he was he was sort of poking at Rogan, like, "Aw, what's he do? He's not making any money. He's not doing anything." It's like, but he is, right? [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: You bet he is.

Steve Palmer: Like the hare and the tortoise; you better watch out.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, Rogan's doing very well. There's some good podcasts out there-

Brett Johnson: Guess who's in the press right now? Rogan is. Stern ain't.

Steve Palmer: No, that's exactly-

Brett Johnson: Stern gets talked about very, very little anymore.

Steve Palmer: He doesn't care. He's made his money [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Oh, yeah. He's not in that stage of the game.

Steve Palmer: What's happening is that you've got, like, Ben Shapiro. He's making tons of money on his little podcast; you've got Rogan making lots of money. There's dozens of guys that are taking this format, and making it work financially. I think sooner or later, the sponsorship money will, or the advertising money will have to follow.

Brett Johnson: Coming from my background, just recently exiting a local radio station group after … Well, I've been in radio for over 35 years, but 20 years there, in sales, but I also did some on-air promotions, and such. I've been on both sides of the building, let's put it that way …

Brett Johnson: Leaving there, I can tell you, at least from an industry standpoint, it has to come from top down. If owners don't get it, the rest of the building won't get it either. I know a lot of it's coming from the programming, and it sounds as though, in your situation, Dino, it was welcomed. That's great, but a lot of program directors take a look at this as, "If they're listening to a podcast, they're not listening to my radio station." Bottom line.

Brett Johnson: It's an economy of time; that you only have X amount of hours per day, so if you're gonna spend it with a podcast, I don't get you as a PPM, as a portable-people-meter person, and you're not a listener-

Dino Tripodis: God, don't get me started on PPM.

Brett Johnson: Right. They're not seeing it as an extension, a brand extension for the radio station. That's exactly what I walked out of; exactly what I walked out of, because I was the only one with the instigating, and pushing forward any podcasting there. I leave, and it's dying on the vine. It's amazing, and they're not grabbing a hold of this, and understanding what's going on with it. That's partly why I left.

Steve Palmer: It's almost like Big Tobacco saying, "We're not gonna vape."

Brett Johnson: I get calls from businesses who wanna podcast, and I hook up studios. I don't use radio stations. Why would you not think a business would call the radio station? They have the equipment.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it's all right there.

Brett Johnson: It's all right there, but they don't get the calls, Dino. They don't get the calls. I get the calls.

Dino Tripodis: Good.

Brett Johnson: It doesn't make any sense. If you think you're gonna make a video, you call TV, right?

Dino Tripodis: Yeah..

Brett Johnson: They got the equipment. Radio may have missed the boat. They may have missed the boat.

Dino Tripodis: They're missing the boat. I think there's still time for them to get another boat, and swim out to that boat-

Brett Johnson: [inaudible] yeah.

Dino Tripodis: -and get on it, but they are missing the boat, as we speak. Have they missed it completely? I don't know, because what I … I do see some stations across the country that do embrace it [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Yes, they are. You're right.

Dino Tripodis: There are some that are embracing the podcasts, and encouraging their personalities, their morning-show personalities, their afternoon, to do them, in addition to whatever they're doing on the show, to add more layers to who they are, and what they're all about. I think that's great.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. In your situation, Steve, as well, I think stations are missing the boat that they're not training their sales reps to take a look at, "Okay, who on your list of advertisers could be prime for a podcast, outside of what they do?" Just exactly what you do with yours.

Steve Palmer: Sure, yeah.

Brett Johnson: Exactly what you do. That's where a sales rep can make money.

Steve Palmer: You would think a radio station could bring a lot of value, and force to that equation, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: It's like, "We're gonna help you get your podcast … Come to our studio. Just come to this one that's empty over here. We've got the voice processors. It'll be everything … You don't have to worry … You can do … " What held me back, they can supply for people, which is I had trouble getting my head around actually making it happen with the equipment. How do I record? How do I get it up to a podcast? How do I do all these things?

Steve Palmer: In practicality, once you've figure it out, it's doable, but it's the kind of hurdle that prevents people from doing it. Somebody like you, now, is gonna do it, and help people do it. Radio stations could do that, and then use their station to help you promote it. I think that could generate dollars for a radio station, but what do I know?

Dino Tripodis: How different do you think it is … Let me ask you this. There are people that the radio station will sell time for these shows, where clients come in, and do a half-hour show; basically, they're just pushing their product.

Brett Johnson: Long-form programming, basically.

Dino Tripodis: They're usually on a Sunday morning, or a Sunday afternoon. How is that any different?

Brett Johnson: It's not, other than they're on 8:00 on Sunday morning, and, at 8:29, the show is gone forever [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -it's done, and this one … With the podcast, you're doing it, and then-.

Brett Johnson: Even if it's repurposing that long-form program, that's okay, but in real-time radio, it's gone forever. It's out in the ether space.

Steve Palmer: That's a good point … I had to face this in another media, which is the internet. I'm almost 50, now; 48. I'll be 49 in May-

Dino Tripodis: I got psychological issues I wanna [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: -but I built my law practice the old-fashioned way. I was over … I would go to happy hours, or I would go meet people on a golf course, or doing stuff like this, or just shaking hands, or actually … Frankly, just being good at what we did, at that time, was a huge … That's what drove business into my doors.

Steve Palmer: Then, there came a time after 2008, particularly, when the market sorta crashed, that everybody in their mother was gonna be a criminal-defense lawyer. What they were good at was internet marketing; they could go grab DUI cases; they could grab the misdemeanor stuff, or even some bigger felony stuff, and get paid some money. People out there didn't know any better. They would just click, and say, "Oh, this is a good website. I'll go talk to this guy, and if he or she …" This gal, they got this right sales pitch, they'll hire 'em. That became a whole different competitive market for me.

Brett Johnson: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I either get along, or go along. You gotta jump on, and start doing it. We had to build a web page; we had to start doing some search-engine stuff just to keep up. It sounds like radio is sort of in that same mode, where the old, and the new are sort of spreading apart here, faster than maybe is healthy.

Steve Palmer: I think, ultimately, that if the target audience, or the target dollars, are people who have them to spend on advertising … Just look at the generation coming up behind us, guys. They're doing everything online; they're doing everything digitally; they're doing everything … They don't wanna waste time finding a radio show that's on Sunday morning. They're gonna just google it, and if it doesn't show up, it's gone. Like you said, it's done. It's interesting [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: I think there's still value in terrestrial radio, as far as advertising [cross talk] I've heard that death bell so many times, over the last 24 years, and it's just not true. Terrestrial radio has its place in this communication world, but you've got to be aware of what's coming, and … Not what's coming, what's here.

Brett Johnson: I think this was an opportunity … I agree, it's not gone yet. I get sarcastic with it, but I think Radio has, and had such an opportunity to be in front of the curve for once, with podcasts, and embrace it.

Brett Johnson: Just recently, there was a large conference of podcasters, called Podcast Movement, and it's been going on … It's grown by thousands every year, and it's only about four years old. This year, they invited radio to be a track of, as well, too. Radio was on one side; podcasters on another; the two did not mix. They did not mix, and you heard comments, after the conference that radio people did not wanna talk to podcast people. They had different meet-ups and there was … Again, it's that red-headed stepchild attitude, overall [cross talk] Like what you said, though, there are some groups that get it, and are moving forward with it, but it's still that stigma that it's-.

Dino Tripodis: It's too bad, because I gotta be honest with you, when I started podcasting, while I was still at the radio station, it actually made me a better broadcaster.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Because, with podcasting, you don't have the restrictions of time. You can talk at length. You're not worried about getting to the next stop set of commercials, or the latest Maroon 5 song, whatever the case may be-.

Steve Palmer: Five songs an hour [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, whatever was going on, It made me, when I started doing the podcast when I'm still at station, made me a better interviewer, and consequently, a better broadcaster; also made me think out of the box a little bit more. Yeah, the two definitely … If you're in radio, and you're podcasting, you should definitely marry those two together, and become a force, because it only benefits you in the long run.

Brett Johnson: You've done the same thing with Lawyer Talk. You've had strategy … Even if it's not really called a strategy meeting, you guys are planning out episodes way in advance … Where do you wanna go? Let's add an extra one on Friday. Let's do this. Let's focus on this … All back toward branding Yavitch & Palmer, bottom line.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. You know what I found? Here's what's fascinating to me. Here's how it works for me. Somebody calls me, I say, "How'd you find me to help you with your drunk-driving case, or your federal drug case, or whatever crime it is?" More, and more, and more, I was hearing, "Well, you know, I heard you on the radio, and I just always thought you're very honest. You just tell people like it is …"

Dino Tripodis: You cut through.

Steve Palmer: "You just cut through all [cross talk] I looked you up on the internet, and then so-and-so, my buddy, recommended you …" or some other referral source. All of that almost always originated at that radio show. It gave me an opportunity to share who I am, and give people a glimpse of what the experience would be. Not that I'm great, but just everybody's individual, and you got to see that, as opposed to some web page, or some video, or something that is not so free-flowing.

Steve Palmer: Now, I just thought, I got a podcast. I can do this anytime I want. I can go, "Look, a big issue, there's a new drunk-driving law. Let's just go talk about it." People can hear us talking about it, and if that generates business for me, great; if it doesn't, great; but, I can do that without, like you said, without restriction. I don't have to-

Dino Tripodis: I think the other thing you have going for you is something that I always stress to people who are thinking about starting to do podcasts. You have consistency, correct?

Steve Palmer: Yes.

Dino Tripodis: You're consistent. You put out a product on a regular basis … When I mentioned those 500,000 podcasts that are out there, and only … How many of them are actually active, and regular, and consistent? Not that many, in the big picture. I think consistency is a key to the success of it all, too. You've gotta keep putting something out there.

Dino Tripodis: We've had more than 75 podcasts, because we're on our 75th bottle of whiskey.

Steve Palmer: At some point, you're gonna run out of [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: No, no, no … Are you kidding me? No, Whiskey Business will fall by the wayside before I ever get to every whiskey that is out there.

Steve Palmer: It is a good goal, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it's a good goal. It's a good goal. We've had a lot of two-parters, and we've had what we call Whiskey Shots, when you talk about the consistency. If we can't get a whole podcast out on any given week, we do something called Whiskey Shots, which are just short little tidbits that are fun to kind of just keep the flow going.

Dino Tripodis: Trust me. We'd finished up our holiday show holiday, a holiday two-parter, in the middle of December, and let that two-parter run through the end of the year. I'm going crazy, because I've not done a podcast in … It woulda been three weeks. I'm jonesing to get back on the mic, and do a podcast, cause I feel we've been down too long. You know what I mean?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and you do feel like … If you're not doing something, somebody else is. It's getting stale, or something else. It's like a vacuum, man. Something's filling it up. What surprised me is that it is not easy. You've gotta constantly, or I have to, anyway, constantly contemplate what is next; what is going to be the next topic? What's another thing we can talk about? Because, as much as when I first sat down with Brett, and thought, "I could do a podcast. I could do one every day, if I wanted to." All right, well, that … You can do your first little run. That's about two weeks [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: A lot of people forget.

Brett Johnson: That's exactly how … The end point is about three or four episodes; two weeks.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: It's done, and they kinda go-

Dino Tripodis: "Whaddya do? You're in radio, where you talk for like two-three minutes, and then you … That's all you have to do? Only work like four hours a day?" Like, "Yeah, no …"

Brett Johnson: Right, yeah. Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: I do that. I do talk for two, and three minutes at a time, for four hours a day-

Brett Johnson: But my butt's here at 4:00 in the morning, prepping for this show-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, 4:00 in the morning, and I've been doing it consistently, and well, for 24 years. You're right, it's not easy.

Steve Palmer: It's not easy, and I-

Dino Tripodis: It's not easy.

Steve Palmer: I have more respect for you guys now than ever, and as I go in every Wednesday, still, and look at Loper, and Randy, and everybody else on that show – what they do … He's great at it. They're great at it, but it is not without hard work. They put in their time, and they've got their clipboards, and they've got … They actually ponder what is gonna happen next. As much as they make it sound like it's just all easy, and free-flowing, it is not. A lot of work, and effort goes into that from both the right side of the brain, and the left side of the brain. [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Sure. A lot of hard work goes into making something sound, and look easy. People forget that.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Right, exactly. What's your answer to radio, Dino? You get a radio exec saying, "Okay, we wanna make this podcast thing work." From your perspective – you've been on the air for over 24- 20 years-

Dino Tripodis: How do they wanna make it work it? They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Yeah-

Dino Tripodis: They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Because it always comes down to the dollar. It always does. You know, a radio station group … Whether it's a standalone station, or a group, they will not do it unless there's a bottom line to it. How do they do it, from your perspective?

Dino Tripodis: If it goes down to the sales department, you have got to sit down with the salespeople, and drill it in their head somehow that this is a viable product that needs to be sold, just like anything else you sell. I think where some of the salespeople probably …

Dino Tripodis: This is just my opinion, and just my perspective on how it looked like. It looked like, "Oh, I can only sell this for this," as opposed to spending my time, and selling something bigger for this. They can't escape what they should do … What they should do, when they're going after the bigger clients is to also include this podcasting thing with it.

Dino Tripodis: If you wanna to go after your bigger clients, and say that's where you're gonna make your nut, as a salary, as a salesperson. Fine. Take this, and be proud of this other little extra thing that we have, in addition to what we're selling you, to add to the package. Make it an add-on, and explain to them, this is also … "It's great. I love the fact that you're advertising on our radio station, but this is actually up and coming, as well, too. Why don't you be the first to get on this?" Sell it-

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: You're not selling them a bill of goods. It's legit, but you have to believe in what you're selling. You have to believe in what you're doing, in order to persuade people.

Brett Johnson: I think that we have a generation of sales reps who have not been … You've been in radio long enough to know, and I've been in it long enough to know, and you have actually enough, too, that host-read commercials are extremely effective.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: That's what podcasting is kicking butt with. That piece is gone now, because radio has changed itself so much that … Like you said, play your music, three minutes in, get out. Don't say any more than you have to. There's no personality to it. I think reps don't understand that you can sell the product.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: You can sell the product, and they're not allowing you to do that.

Steve Palmer: Well, you've hit on it, when you said believe in what you're selling.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: You get a podcast host like you … I hear people do it … You hear different people sell … Like a podcast, I've heard podcasts say, "Oh, try this toothbrush. Let me tell you about this toothbrush." Then, they're gonna spend whatever time they are talking about it, not in a "20 doctors recommend this, this, and this." This is an organic, me talking about your product, or better yet, come in, and talk about it with me, and give me the highlights, and let us really go.

Steve Palmer: I think you're right. If you turn that into a value-added service on the radio, or a salesperson come to a guy like me, and say, "Hey, look, Randy and Loper have a podcast, too." It's sort of akin to the 15-second spot at midnight. They're gonna sell somebody that. "We're gonna throw in five of these at midnight." Not many people are listening, but you get it. You can even start it that way, but really, it gives somebody like the radio host a lot more freedom to sell your product.

Dino Tripodis: Right. It does. Yeah, because they could actually talk about it for more than 30 seconds.

Brett Johnson: Right. We've lost a generation of sales reps that have experienced radio, when it was doing that on air. I think that's the missed connection, because sales reps don't even know that it could happen.

Dino Tripodis: Right. When I left the station, I had a ton of personal endorsements, which were great. Probably, if I would've stayed, there'd be more, because people were starting to … They wanted me talking about going out to the Player's Grill for 60 seconds, or whatever the case might be, as opposed to just running a commercial. Yeah, it is … It's right there. They should add it on.

Dino Tripodis: At least start that way. Then, when it becomes a bigger thing, which it will, then you can branch off, and say, "You can either do it here on the radio station, or you could do it on our very successful podcast." They both feed off of each other, and I think that's what they need to realize.

Steve Palmer: How did it work for deejays? I imagine this, as a lawyer. I'm thinking contracts. If I'm a deejay, and I'm brought in from wherever to come in and host of The Morning Drive, or The Afternoon Drive, and I just start … I have my own podcast already going, or I'm gonna start my own podcast. I just see, eventually, conflict there, where a guy like you is gonna be, "All right. Hey, I already got my podcast. How much of a piece of the radio- or is a radio station gonna try to take of that in the contract negotiations, and where does that all fall out?".

Dino Tripodis: I think that's an interesting … That's a very interesting point, because that's where I will be if … My non-compete was up, late November of 2018. If I decide to pursue other radio options, I have this podcast that goes with me. Now, there are certain radio companies who are embracing the podcast world a little bit more; are into streaming a great bit, in a huge way, and stream their stations all across the country.

Dino Tripodis: I'm aware of the fact that some of those companies would take Whiskey Business, and do something with it. How do I negotiate the monies? That's another conversation for another time. Yeah, there is something in there. Now, I also consider it to be kind of an extra thing that I'm bringing with me.

Steve Palmer: You bet … If I'm representing you, and negotiating for you, I'm thinking to myself, "All right, this guy's been in radio for 25 years; done his podcast for five years. He's got this business, this business, and this business who are paying him regularly to just be on, and talk about their products, or do whatever." Now, when you bring that to the table, you're … I don't know sales in radio, but I do know this – it's all about finding the business, right? [cross talk] The lead is everything.

Dino Tripodis: Radio sales have local clients, and they also have national clients – national dollars – that they go after, as well. Yeah-.

Steve Palmer: You're bringing leads to the table. You oughta get paid out on that.

Dino Tripodis: You can. It can be very profitable. I was always envious of the really successful salespeople at the radio station, because they were making twice as much as I was making-

Steve Palmer: Sure, sure.

Dino Tripodis: -in sales. They were making it … When they would bring me personal endorsements, I knew that they were making twice as much as I was making, but that's fine. You're good at what you do. Just take it to the next level, or add this on to it, and you'll make more money.

Steve Palmer: Right.

Brett Johnson: … I walk into agreements with the new podcasters. In my contract with them is I don't want that audio content when our contract ends. What am I gonna do with it? It's done. When we part ways, it's all yours. I'll give it to you. It's in a Dropbox; boom, go with it. Work with the next person, or maybe the podcast dies; whatever it might be. I don't want any of it. Radio stations may be a little quirky about that, that it's … I think a deejay/on-air personality has to really walk into it really, really smart.

Steve Palmer: If I'm negotiating from [cross talk] from a perspective of a talent guy going into a radio, I would be very cautious, because you walk in – you start using their mics, start using their recording devices, their processors, their bricks and mortar, and you're gonna record your own podcast, you gotta be careful who owns it. At some juncture, if it takes off, and I think they will, there's gonna be a lot of lawsuits on where the money goes [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -interesting. I'll be aware of that, when I get myself in that situation, if I get in that situation, but I don't … Once again, I will stress this: radio stations, you're listening. You want your jocks to be engaged in social media. You want them on Facebook. You want them on Instagram. You want them on Twitter. This is … Right there, it's in that same wheelhouse of exposure. Embrace the podcast, as well as all those other things, as well.

Brett Johnson: All right. You look at it as a business, Steve. How do you approach it, if you're [inaudible] radio advertiser, are looking at possibly starting a podcast, but also use radio. What advice would you give?

Steve Palmer: In other words. if I am looking to do my own podcast, and get my brand out there in one form or another, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: I was lucky in a lot of ways, in that I got to hone my skill, so to speak, on air, in dealing with stuff coming at me on the fly. My profession being a trial lawyer sort of gives me somewhat of a skill set that I practice regularly on that, but it was very helpful to see the inside of the radio station, understand what a microphone is, and then, how to talk on the microphone, and get comfortable with that.

Steve Palmer: To do your own podcast is not necessarily easy. Even I was worried … Not even I, but I was worried when I started. I was like, "I think I can keep it going …" I guess my first bit of advice is don't think it's easy to go do your own podcast, but if you're gonna go advertise on the radio, what has worked for me was being on the radio. It's not just saying … Not having somebody read my spots; not have somebody record, and hit play 10 times a day, alone. It was me having my personality on radio.

Steve Palmer: Now, if you can't do that, a podcast is a great way to do it. I would say start with other podcasters; start by doing what we're doing around this table, in the sense that you can get comfortable on a microphone; comfortable having people talk to you; comfortable talking to people. Then, use that for training wheels for your own podcast. Then, have a niche, and enjoy it.

Steve Palmer: I would be careful now with my dollars. If I'm going to a radio station to say, "I wanna advertise with you," and they give me a price tag, I'd be very careful with my dollars on that, right now. I never saw it as that being the product that I wanted. I wanted my personality to be reflected somehow on the air. I guess that's my advice. I would be cautious with going to radio, and doing traditional advertising, at least as a small business.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and I'd have to agree. It pains me. I got into radio because I love the audio medium, and the influence it has on us. Radio has changed in my 30 years. When I first started [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -mine, as well.

Brett Johnson: -basically same era. It's a totally different beast, right now, than it was, and it's kinda what drove me out of it, because it just, it's not the same. If I wanna listen to music, I'll go to Spotify. I don't have to listen to a radio station to really listen to it. I hate saying that, but that's just … It's come to the realization … If I wanna be entertained, I'll listen to a podcast. I'll find a podcast that'll entertain me, and inform me. I think you're right. Be careful what you do. You gotta be really careful with the dollars, and such. Do some homework. Do some homework.

Dino Tripodis: Again, I'm not defending radio, but radio is still a great avenue to advertise on.

Brett Johnson: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It's effective. It's effective, but, yeah, sure, be cautious, and see where exactly … How can I maximize these dollars?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and I don't mean to be too critical of radio, either. I love it.

Brett Johnson: I do, too.

Steve Palmer: I loved going on that show. Here's what I have learned, though. The other side of my coin is this – a lot of people listened to me on Wednesdays, on that radio show, and there's a lot of listeners out there not listening to podcasts, between those hours that I'm on, listening to that show …

Steve Palmer: The other bit of wisdom I have is don't sell that short, either. There's still a lot of value there. I guess I came into it from that end, not the spend money on advertising end. I got here first, then I spent money on advertising, and they worked together. This is sorta where we started.

Steve Palmer: Going the opposite, I don't know that I ever would have done it. I don't know that I ever would have been sold by a radio salesperson saying, "You, as this lawyer, can make a lotta money in return for advertising your spots on the radio." Now, I'm not saying that's not true. I might have been able to do it, but I don't think I necessarily would have been sold on that. I would not have gotten my head around that, particularly in the internet age, and everything else.

Steve Palmer: I think being mindful of what's coming up behind us … This generation of consumers is different than what I have ever seen, and what I think most of people older have ever seen. We've never seen anything like it. Everything's done online. Everything is done quick, quickly. Everything is … You're going to Spotify. They're not gonna listen; they're not gonna find their music necessarily on the air. It's gonna be found where they want it [cross talk] and where it saved, or wherever it is. I don't know what it all … I don't know what it's all about, but I would encourage anybody to podcast. It's a blast.

Brett Johnson: Exactly, exactly.

Dino Tripodis: It is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. Like I said, I think it's made me a better broadcaster. It's made me a far better interviewer. That skill has increased tenfold just from doing the podcast.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, there's a lot to learn from it, that's for sure. I think we've answered the world problems.

Dino Tripodis: Have we?

Brett Johnson: I think so. I think so. This is where I wanted to go with it, though. Thank you for the discussion. Finally nice to really meet you [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Likewise.

Brett Johnson: I meant to ask you, too, you're doing some live stuff, too. I know Steve and I have kicked around, trying to get Lawyer Talk live on stage. You were at the Podcast Festival.

Dino Tripodis: I was at the Podcast Festival, and we had a blast doing that. If you can get on-board with that this year when it rolls around, do.

Steve Palmer: Absolutely, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Since I also come from a comedic background, comic background, I'll be talking with The Funny Bone, here in Columbus. We're going to do a Whiskey Business podcast comedy show.

Brett Johnson: Oh, sweet.

Dino Tripodis: Basically, it will be I'll introduce the podcast; I'll have a comedian come up, and do 15 minutes; then he'll do 15 minutes with me. Almost like a talk show, like a variety show, but it'll be the podcast. He'll podcast with me for 15 minutes. We'll do that with three comedians. They'll go up, do 15, and then, sit down at me for 15, and then, so forth, and so on.

Dino Tripodis: Once again, from the technical arena, do we stream that live? Is it just recorded for later? Don't know, but … Do we bring in video cameras? I have the capability, because we're also filmmakers. I mentioned John Whitney, and myself … We're filmmakers, as well, so we were in that world, too. We have the lights, and the equipment to do all that stuff, if we need to do it. How do we structure it? I don't know. I just wanna get butts in the seats, and make that happen, so that it's successful.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Doing the live stuff is-

Steve Palmer: It's a whole new world.

Dino Tripodis: It's a shot of adrenaline. Now, I come from a live-performance background, doing stand up, so that was my first big thing in radio was, "I can't hear the laughter. I don't know if they're laughing. I can't hear the laughter." I dig that. I dig that live, spontaneous-.

Steve Palmer: Well, there's an adrenaline … That's like trying cases. You would be good at it, probably.

Dino Tripodis: My mother always wanted me to be a lawyer.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you did the right thing.

Dino Tripodis: Yes, she wanted to be a lawyer. She always said, when I got outta trouble, "You'd be a good defense lawyer."

Steve Palmer: There you go. There you go. No, there is adrenaline rush, being live without a net. It's what you're doing, right? I couldn't imagine. Stand up would scare the bejesus outta me, man. I would be like … I don't think I could do it.

Brett Johnson: It's like going out there naked.

Dino Tripodis: I've always made this joke to my attorney friends; I've always said, obviously, it's too late for me to go to law school, but if I had … What's one thing you wanna do before you die? I said, "I would like to do the closing argument. I would like to be the closer. I would like to come up … I would like to, after everything's going on, do the closing argument. Talk to the jury – that that speech to the jury. I wanna do a closing argument. I wanna say, 'Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm not really a lawyer, but, is this case really about the law?'"

Steve Palmer: Not at that point, it isn't.

Brett Johnson: He could give you insight on that [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: It's never about the law.

Dino Tripodis: -I wanna close. I wanna close.

Brett Johnson: Oh, man … Steve, thank you for jumping on at the last minute. Once I knew [cross talk] I knew we could bring three different perspectives on radio, and podcasting, and obviously we just, we scratched the surface, but it's just our-.

Dino Tripodis: Do you drink whiskey?

Steve Palmer: Not anymore. I am now three years without alcohol.

Dino Tripodis: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I just liked it a lot. I never got in trouble, or I never had any issues, but, one day, I just woke up, and thought, "I don't think I'm gonna drink alcohol anymore," and I've never looked back; but I did love whiskey.

Dino Tripodis: Well, we've had guests that do not imbibe on Whiskey Business, so, I'd be very … We should cross-pollinate here on the podcast-

Steve Palmer: Let's do it, for sure.

Dino Tripodis: -and get you on Whiskey. You do not have to drink. In fact, that just means more for us.

Brett Johnson: It'd mess with your keto diet, anyway, right? [cross talk] Yeah exactly.

Dino Tripodis: -does that work?

Steve Palmer: Oh, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Does it work?

Steve Palmer: I feel great, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: How long you been on it?

Steve Palmer: Almost a month now.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah?

Steve Palmer: Let me tell you, I feel awesome; almost euphorically awesome … There's a point of euphoria, where you just feel like you can conquer the world early on. Then, you just sort of realize the little things. I was hunting over the weekend – it's muzzle-loader season – I was out hunting, and I was hiking up this huge hill; had my 12-year-old, or soon to be 12-year-old son with me. I said, "We gotta climb up that hill." He's huffing air, and doing a … I walked up there. I felt great. It's not that I'm exercising a lot, or doing anything like that; just my joints feel better; I rest better; my sleep is better; my awake time is better; everything is just working better without really …. If you could just say … Everybody would agree with this – don't eat a lot of sugar.

Dino Tripodis: Right. I agree with that.

Steve Palmer: Don't eat a lot of processed carbohydrates-

Dino Tripodis: Processed foods, yeah.

Steve Palmer: That's great. If you cut those things outta your life, you'll feel a lot better.

Brett Johnson: Except …

Dino Tripodis: You gotta cut whiskey, too, right?

Steve Palmer: No, you could work that in.

Dino Tripodis: You could work that in? [cross talk] Maybe I'll give it a shot.

Steve Palmer: Yeah …

Dino Tripodis: I can deal without the excessive sugars, the processed sugars, and some of the carbohydrates, but, I'm a man who cannot live without his bread [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I get you. I get you.

Dino Tripodis: Anyway, we're going down rabbit holes, since you talked about [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: That's okay. It's not a problem at all. Thank you both for being part of Note to Future Me.

Steve Palmer: All right, thank you.

Dino Tripodis: Our pleasure, thank you.

Sonix is the best online audio transcription software in 2019.

The above audio transcript of “Podcasting, Radio, And Sponsors” was transcribed by the best audio transcription service called Sonix. If you have to convert audio to text in 2019, then you should try Sonix. Transcribing audio files is painful. Sonix makes it fast, easy, and affordable. I love using Sonix to transcribe my audio files.

In this episode, I’m taking a sidestep. I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast Whiskey Business and former long time morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast Lawyer Talk: Off The Record, and owner and partner at the law firm of Yavitch and Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Okay, now you’re thinking what do we three have in common…

Radio and podcasting.

Dino, of course, with his years on-air and his podcast. Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast and has been a radio advertiser and a part of a morning radio call-in show on WRKZ 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. And I’m a 35 year plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time. And I have two great guests to talk about how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light.

We three have different viewpoints coming from three different perspectives and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Brett Johnson is the owner and lead consultant at Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. With over 35+ years of experience in Marketing, Content Creation, Audio Production/Recording and Broadcasting, the podcast consultants at Circle270Media strategically bring these strengths together for their business Podcast clients.

Subscribe to my free daily Open The Mic Newsletter at It’s chock full of podcast news you may have missed, as well as social media, sales, and audio production tips, and insights on how to grow your business podcast.

If your business is using podcasting as a marketing or branding tool, I would love to showcase your podcast. Go to and scroll down to my booking calendar. Email us at to set up time to talk more about your new or established business podcast.

Athletic Mind Institute Podcast

In this episode, I talk with Dr. Todd Kays, host of Athletic Mind Institute Podcast, a podcast he produces for his sports and performance psychology practice, The Athletic Mind Institute.

Athletic Mind Institute (transcribed by Sonix)

Brett Johnson: Before we get into the business side of the podcast, I wanted to give you some time, and talk about a nonprofit that you support with your time, talent, or treasure. Let's talk a little bit about nonprofits.

Dr. Todd Kays: Well, because I'm a cancer survivor, I certainly support a lot of things related to cancer, all the way from riding in Pelatonia, to donating to various funds at, for example, the Ohio State University – their cancer research center – and all the wonderful things they there; as well as there's organizations here in town who help people who are coming from out of town to be treated for cancer, and sometimes, they have to stay here for a number of days. They don't have the money for gas, food, for a place to stay.

Dr. Todd Kays: Most of my nonprofit, I guess, dedication has been around the area of cancer, and primarily, the incentive was … I had the personal incentive of being a cancer survivor, so I want to certainly give back, and help people, certainly, in this situation.

Brett Johnson: That tends to be where the help goes. I think we have various nonprofits that we help with, depending. but a lot of it does hinge on health-related situations, whether it affected you directly, or a family member, or a close friend, and such, that it seems to be that's where it goes, which is great, because that has the emotional tie.

Dr. Todd Kays: Exactly.

Brett Johnson: You continue on, and you advocate, as well, as you're doing right now, so, yeah, great. Let's talk a little bit about your professional background, and history – how you started your business.

Dr. Todd Kays: I started my business … In sports psychology, it was very new, newer, when I was coming in out of graduate school. The first sports psychologist that we had, even with United States Olympics, was in 1988 Seoul, Korea.

Dr. Todd Kays: I was in graduate school, 1990, so there wasn't a whole lot being done at that time. I had found that, about two years before … When you do a doctorate, you have to do a year of internship. I found that Ohio State was doing something a little bit in the area of sports psychology, so I contacted them. Fortunately, they gave me … I earned the internship.

Dr. Todd Kays: During that time, I also helped to build a fellowship program, because there was no other fellowship programs in the country for postdoctoral people to get any training in sports psychology, so, we started there. At that point, there were really no jobs in the mid-'90s. You couldn't look up, and find a job for sports psychologist needed. They're still very limited, believe it or not, across the country, in, for example, large university settings.

Dr. Todd Kays: About 1998, it was time for me to … The person at Ohio State, obviously far, and few between jobs, he was going to stay there, so I had to say, "Well, there's no jobs out there," and I had to either do something else, or start my own practice. I started my own practice, and I guess this is 20 years now I've been in private practice.

Brett Johnson: Did you have a mentor moving into that arena, knowing it was just wide open?

Dr. Todd Kays: I did not, in fact. I read a lot. I talked to certain people, but a specific mentor, no, because there really wasn't many people doing this at that time that … On one hand, it was exciting, because you blaze your own trail. On the other side of things, I wish I could have learned from somebody; maybe made fewer mistakes that I made.

Dr. Todd Kays: I have more … I call them colleagues, but they're truly mentors, because we go back and forth, and we can share ideas, and talk about our businesses, talk about growing practices, all the way from a marketing perspective, to how are you working with a professional team, or how do you get into a certain college, to help them understand the importance and the need for these types of services?

Brett Johnson: Did you have an uphill struggle in explaining what this was all about-

Dr. Todd Kays: Still do-

Brett Johnson: -on what, and why it's important? You do? Wow.

Dr. Todd Kays: Still do. It's much better, and I think people are understanding it more, and more today. I will probably speak 30 to 40 times a year at different events, and one of my first question is: how many have been exposed, or worked with, or understand sports psychology? I would be lucky to still get 5 to 10 percent of them that would raise their hand.

Brett Johnson: To ask them, many will say, "Well, it's helping the mind with athletes." That's a very simplistic view, but what exactly do you do? Very few people, even today, have a difficult time understanding, until … Once I break it down for them, they're all in. They're like, "Shy didn't I do this 20 years ago? Why didn't I do this five years ago? Why didn't I get my son or daughter started in this, when they entered high school, or even middle school?"

Dr. Todd Kays: We're all about developing positive habits. Well, I'm helping develop positive mental habits, and there's a process to that, and there's a way to do that, that most people, when they read about sports psychology, it's very pie in the sky, and airy; it's like, "Well, yeah, that makes sense. I need to focus more.".

Dr. Todd Kays: To me, what's been exciting over particularly the past decade is for me to show the process for people to actually strengthen their ability to focus. When I make it real for them, when I demonstrate to them, when I have them do it, when they continue to do it, and they start getting results, then they're like, "Oh …" The light bulb goes off-.

Brett Johnson: The a-ha moment. I like how on your website, you've also … In your practice, you've expanded into even musicians.

Dr. Todd Kays: Oh, absolutely.

Brett Johnson: I love that aspect of it, going, "Well, sure …" It's a competition in a different form, or it's still a mental game.

Dr. Todd Kays: Absolutely. When I first started in the sports, I … My personality, I like variety, and that's a part of the reason I wanted to start my own business is because I wanted to do a number of different things. I wanted to write; I wanted to consult to various organizations; I wanted to do clinical counseling; I also wanted to do performance consulting.

Dr. Todd Kays: It was actually in the late '90s, when I started my practice, where I realized that everything we do in life is a performance. It really started rolling when I had … A fairly high executive at a large company here in town came to me, and said, "The performance that you're teaching my son in golf," he goes, "My staff need this," and he goes, "Does that make sense to you?" I said, "Perfectly."

Dr. Todd Kays: That kinda changed real early. I've been able to work with a broad scheme of people, which is … To me, part of my personality is I love the variety. The musicians came about is more so when we had the financial crisis in 2008; that they were gonna close the symphony.

Dr. Todd Kays: Most of these people, once you get a symphony job, you stay there, and most of these people had been there 15, 20, sometimes 30 years. They had not auditioned in that long. Now, all the sudden, they're out of a job, and they have to go, and they have to audition, which they haven't done for years.

Dr. Todd Kays: The anxiety, the worry, certainly the stress of losing a job, certainly the financial stress – "How am I gonna support my family?" – all of those sorts of things … I've got a flood of people from the Columbus Symphony saying, "I am so nervous. I've played the French horn; I've played the flute for 30 years, and I can barely play now, because I'm so nervous about the upcoming auditions." It was, and it still is – I still consult to a lot of musicians – it's a fascinating group to work with.

Brett Johnson: Wow, that's interesting that it turned into the loss of a job, and having to re-audition, rather than the performance skills, and just keeping up their level of play. It's just survival mode.

Dr. Todd Kays: Correct. Desperation sometimes leads us to do things.

Brett Johnson: So, why a podcast?

Dr. Todd Kays: Well, it certainly wasn't something I started out doing, and, in fact, I work with a lot of younger people, partly out of choice, because they keep my mind young; they keep me sharp. There's a number of different people I work with, who work with teams; let's say a golf professional, a golf fitness specialist, and then myself, and, for example, they'll be young.

Dr. Todd Kays: They're always … Instagram, Twitter … Everything is just constant 24/7 for them, and I kinda learned from that. I was like, "Well …" I thought it was really cool what they were doing, but I didn't know much about it, but I saw enough. I was smart enough to realize this is the future.

Dr. Todd Kays: I literally just thought, "Well, the young people, that's what they want to work with." The majority of people, at least from the athletic realm that I work with, are 30 and under, and as young as 10, 11, 12. They have their phones always with them. They are used to podcasts. They are used to social media. Part of the incentive was this is really a part of the business. This has to grow.

Dr. Todd Kays: The other part, for me, was they can actually have my advice, my guidance, my sometimes voice with them 24/7, and it's very helpful to them. It's, in some ways, more affordable. Where my heart was, was I can change more people's lives.

Brett Johnson: Who was all involved at the very beginning? Was it just yourself thinking about this, or did you bring some team members in, going, "Hey, I'm going to do this," and just lay it on the table, and get some input from people around you?

Dr. Todd Kays: No, it was just myself. I just started, and, at the beginning, I scripted things. I would listen to them, and, honestly, I have to say, I didn't listen to them that closely. I was like, "Aw, it's good enough. Let's just get it out," but I scripted things. Then, I learned, boy, this is taking me a long time. Script it, and go over it …

Dr. Todd Kays: Then, I was like, "That's not me." It didn't even sound like me. It sounded too forced, and I was trying to almost teach like I would in the beginning, when I first started teaching at the college level. I would have very prepared presentations.

Dr. Todd Kays: Then, I learned over time, what did the students really like? They loved how I was just interactive. I was with them; I was just talking with them; I was asking them questions. It was telling them stories; giving them images.

Dr. Todd Kays: That's when I just started saying, "Okay, I am just gonna start talking. I don't know what's gonna come out, I'm just gonna stay with this topic." Over the years, it's gotten better. I still am refining, because I'm really taking my podcast to a whole different level now.

Dr. Todd Kays: Now, I'm in the process of getting other people involved, where they're listening. They're giving me feedback. I'm trying to structure it. I'm trying to understand the time. What is the maximum, or minimum time that somebody will listen to a podcast, particularly my audience? I'm finding that they love two to three minutes. Then, I'm finding adults who are fine with 20 minutes, and they will sit down, and they really enjoy the intellectual part, and love learning. I'm learning about that as we speak.

Brett Johnson: From first thoughts to the first episode, how long of a process was that discussion in your mind to do the podcast?

Dr. Todd Kays: It wasn't long. I think I just saw young people doing it. It took me a long time to write. I enjoy writing, but it always took me a long time. The perfectionist in me would come out. I said, "I'm looking at all these young people, and I'm hearing other podcasts …" I'm just like, "Why not?" I literally just sat down on my computer, and just did it, and I sent it out to my email database. I was like, "Wow, people are actually listening to this," and it was easy, and it was fun.

Dr. Todd Kays: Then, I just keep learning, refining, changing. Obviously, my approach, my knowledge, my experience, my expertise is a lot different than it was 20 years ago, so I can add different takes on something that I might have taught very differently 10 years ago.

Brett Johnson: Right, yeah, the student experience that, maybe in the classroom, wasn't quite the same as in real life, but there were pieces that were similar, sure-

Dr. Todd Kays: Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Todd Kays: Were you thinking of return on investment, or a return on influence, when you first started? How were you going to measure that this was working for you? Because it does take a little time … As you said, at the very beginning, you were scripting; so obviously, a lot more time than you're doing now, but it does have that dedication of open-mic record – is it worth my time? Were you putting some factors in your mind on what you thought, about how long you were going to give this?

Dr. Todd Kays: I would like to say that I was an astute business person at the time, and had any thought of that, but I did not. I honestly did not-

Brett Johnson: There is no wrong answer to that. It doesn't matter … Some people say the exact same things, like, "No, I just knew it was the right thing to do.".

Dr. Todd Kays: That's what it was for me; I knew it was something I wanted to try. One of the things that I love about, and I truly try to capture every week, and I'm getting better, is the creativity part. Running a business has been a challenge – for any small business person – but when you're trying to do, and you're wearing multiple hats, it's hard to do what you're really, really good at, maybe passionate about, but at the same time, you have to run a business.

Dr. Todd Kays: The podcast, for me, began as more … It was tapping into my creativity. It was tapping into my heart, which I was like, "This is fun," and I looked forward to doing it, as opposed to sitting down, and writing something, and then analyzing it, and then researching it. I was like, "This is fun," and I'm getting good feedback from at least the student athletes, or the athletes at the time, who are giving me feedback. They were saying, "This is really good. I love this.".

Dr. Todd Kays: I knew I had something, but until, honestly, recently is the first time that I've even thought about, "Okay …" and that was on the advice of another business person, who said, "You've got some great content, and I know that you lead with your heart," he told me, "but I'm a business person," and he said, "just some advice …" He goes, "You can use some free things, but," he goes, "this is really good stuff, and I would encourage you to look at it as," as he said, "maybe a yearly membership, because you could touch people all over the world for a very small price, and you deserve to get paid for your years of experience, and what you're giving out." So, it wasn't my idea, and I'm still honestly getting used to the idea of running it like that, but I'm using him as a mentor to help me.

Brett Johnson: Right. I think a lot of podcasters look at it that way, as well, too, that you're giving it away for free. That was the total intent, initially. He's like, "Yes, I'm branding myself; I'm getting out this information, but is my information- is my content worth anything to anyone?" Then you start working at that price point, going, "Okay, what is this?" You can only play with it, and figure out where the ouch point is, and get a feel from the email database: Would you pay for this? Would you … How much would you …? The range, and such.

Brett Johnson: I think that's where business podcasting will probably have to go a little bit more, because then you have these different levels of listeners, of engagement, as well, still remaining free, because that's what podcasting ultimately is; but, I think we'll have an expectation that there'll be memberships-

Dr. Todd Kays: Correct.

Brett Johnson: -to have deeper content, access to you in a different way, as well, too, that you may be not in Dublin, Ohio, but Dublin, Ireland, and I can talk to Dr. Kays, because I'm part of [cross talk] membership, and such, too, sure.

Dr. Todd Kays: Absolutely, absolutely.

Brett Johnson: The podcast, itself, it's showcasing your sport and performance psychology expertise. How are you allowing it to do that? When you first scripted, you were writing these ideas down, but now, as that business owner said to you, you lead with your heart … When you open your mic, where's it coming from? How are you doing this? Is it topics in mind that you think, "Okay, I do wanna cover this, this, this, and this?" How is it coming to you?

Dr. Todd Kays: It really comes to me based on all of the work I'm doing. For example, if I'm working with … I have a number of professional athletes. They're very different, and have different challenges – to a college student athlete, to a high school student athlete, to a middle school student athlete, to the parents, to the coaches.

Dr. Todd Kays: It's, for example, a lot of times, what I'm hearing, seeing in my current practice at any given time. Recently, in the past two months, just right here in central Ohio, there were a number of student athlete suicides. Immediately, I thought this has gotta be addressed, so immediately, that day, because I had literally, that day, when the third one occurred, I had calls from three different colleges for me to come out, and speak.

Dr. Todd Kays: I said, "Okay, this is real life stuff. Winning a game, that's wonderful, but it's a game. This was real life stuff." I immediately started writing, and getting this out, saying we have to look at student athletes do have depression, do have anxiety, do have clinical issues, just like everybody else. We can't think that just because they're on TV, or they appear to be a 26-year-old, when they're really only 18 years old, and sometimes, they're only emotionally about 15, or 16. We can expect that. In that way, that's what … I led that.

Dr. Todd Kays: I consistently hear distraction. Why do we have a distraction? Well, partly it's because of young high school students constantly being on social media, and the distraction that creates. I said, "Okay, I've gotta develop not only podcasts, but I wanna develop …" in the process of developing a video course. "You wanna learn how to quiet your mind? These are the things you need to do." It's really just based on the trends that I'm seeing, and that I'm hearing from student athletes, athletes every single day. I kinda let that guide what I'm doing, and what I'm going to choose to discuss.

Brett Johnson: I know a lot of businesses want to add content to their website, but they're also pulling back. "Okay, we don't wanna slap everything up there," because it starts messing with the look of the website, and, "Where do we put it as a new tab?" this, that, and the other. Have you seen adding content to your website, the podcast content, increase some traffic to your website, as well?

Dr. Todd Kays: It is increasing some traffic, and, I think what I'm getting more of, besides the traffic, is that I will hear kids, and their parents, for example, of young athletes, I will hear them … They will literally come up to me and say, "Love the podcast. That was so spot on." Whereas, when I was writing newsletters, and papers, I wouldn't get that as much. I do think it's the day and age that … I'm not saying it's a good thing, but we're a very rushed society, and people want things quickly; they want things on the run.

Dr. Todd Kays: Now, my whole premise, when I've done these podcasts, is these aren't quick fixes. When I give, for example, mental training drills, a mental training drill, to a team of student athletes, it might be, "You're gonna listen to this three-minute podcast, but then you're gonna journal about it for seven minutes." I want them to, again, slow down, but, we're in a world; they have access to it …

Dr. Todd Kays: They have people recognizing my name; for example, I'll show up to speak somewhere, and a student athlete who I've never met before will say, "Hey, a friend of mine shared your podcast with me. They're really good." I'm like. "Cool. That's great." For me, that's awesome. If he's listening to something, that means, to me, he's opening his mind to developing positive mental habits well beyond sports.

Dr. Todd Kays: Because I realize that I'm not in this- never was in this business to make professional athletes. I was in this business to help people be successful in life. I realized that there's only a tiny percentage that will ever make a career in professional sports, but if I can help them develop these habits that are going to make their families successful; they're gonna be a successful mom, or a successful dad, someday, or a successful business owner, or agent, or teacher, or whatever, that's what this is really about.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, that's great. Let's get down into the nitty-gritty, in regards to your publishing schedule strategy. When you first started, were you thinking, "I'm gonna do this monthly, every other week, weekly, daily"? What did you initially start out as, and are you still continuing that? How has that evolved, in regards to your schedule strategy?

Dr. Todd Kays: It evolved, most the time, in the beginning, as something struck my heart, and I just did it. I sat down, and I did it. A lot of times, I didn't know what to do with it; it just sat there, because I didn't exactly know, because I'm not one to … I was worried- maybe not worried, but concerned about if I would bombard all of the people that were in my database, who have had relationships with me, or have signed up for newsletters, and things like that.

Dr. Todd Kays: I didn't wanna bombard 'em with 'em, and I really didn't know … Did they really want to listen to these? I was very slow at first. I kept a bank of them, and then would slowly put them out, maybe once a month, honestly; maybe twice a month. It was very haphazard. I would have to say, in the last couple of years of doing this, even though I have over probably 400 podcasts made, only a small few of them have been sent out.

Dr. Todd Kays: Now, with the help of a business mentor, I'm kind of starting to understand, "Okay, this is how you should be doing this. This has to have more of a consistent structure to it." Whether, again, I make any money, I have no idea, but if it helps people … I do know that people may not purchase the podcast, but I do know that it touches people. I do get calls saying, "Hey, I heard your podcast. My son is really struggling; really wants to play at the college level; really gets anxious before competitions. Is this something you can help with?" Absolutely.

Brett Johnson: You mentioned an email strategy, at the very beginning, you incorporated – at least the very first ones in your email – as a delivery system. Still incorporating those in your emails, as well?

Dr. Todd Kays: Yes. The email system, for me, has been the best, honestly. When I look over the years, it's still better than Instagram, which I've been using for the past particularly year, year and a half, maybe two years. The email has always been the best, from my standpoint. All of these other forms of social media …

Dr. Todd Kays: Could be because I'm not using them correctly, or maximizing their benefit, but, it seems that people are in front of their emails, at least adults, who, in some ways, understand the importance … If we look at sports psychology, and athletics, they understand it more, because, simply, they're older. They have more wisdom.

Dr. Todd Kays: A 12-, 15-, 16-year-old? Not necessarily gonna understand it. They like the podcast, because it's cool. It's something they can listen to. They will listen to it in the locker room. Whereas, a parent will get the email, and they'll say, "Wow, this is valuable stuff," and then possibly give me a call, or try to get in touch with me about speaking to their team, or speaking to their club, or whatever the case may be.

Brett Johnson: Instagram, as well as podcasting, is fairly artwork heavy. What's your strategy? How do you create this artwork that you're using, especially for Instagram?

Dr. Todd Kays: I've recently found an app, and it's called Canva. It makes Instagram a little bit more easy. I was just doing it this morning, because I have a big mental training program coming up, and the young people around me say, "You gotta get this on Instagram," so I say okay. One of my friends – and he's in a completely different discipline – he exposed me to this.

Dr. Todd Kays: It took me probably, this morning, an hour. I sent it to him; I said, "What do you think?" He said, "Looks great. How long did it take you?" I said, "An hour." He said, "Why didn't you just tell me? I could have done it in five minutes." I said, "Okay, if you're serious, I'm going to do that.".

Dr. Todd Kays: At the same time, I am truly- the creative part of me, I'm truly enjoying listening, and learning about all these things that are on. It's fun, actually, for me to learn about different companies that do different things with podcasts; how Instagram works, and how they interact with all the others. I'm actually enjoying learning about it. I'm just a little slow-.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. It does tend to bring the creativity out of you , especially with as easy as those apps are anymore. Canva really does make it easy. There are probably five more out there that we don't even know about, or don't remember, at this point in time, but they do make it pretty easy to come up with some very eye-friendly graphics for podcasting; especially for Instagram, because that's very heavy visual arts, for Instagram, compared to a Facebook or a Twitter. You've gotta … It's still that thumb roll. You've gotta catch the eye of that user, and that artwork has to do it for you.

Dr. Todd Kays: Right. I have found, and that's where I will, again, extending outside of my comfort zone … I do think … I'm getting better at it, but I'm having a photographer … She comes out, and she just takes pictures, live pictures of me. It might be speaking; it might be interacting with a team; it might be working one on one. Because I do think those live pictures … I like them better, because they're truly me. They're truly what we're doing, and it's not just clip art, or stock images. I do think that draws more of a personal touch, too-

Brett Johnson: That is Instagram, right there. That is Instagram. Instagram loves that. I took this picture, and I'm posting it sort of feel to it, where I think the other platforms are tending to be stock photo. Nothing wrong with that, it just comes down to that's the flavor of Instagram. That's the way it is. Why did you choose SoundCloud as a platform to post your audio on?

Dr. Todd Kays: Well, this is to my lack of knowledge. I honestly … These files, all these 400 podcasts, I didn't know what to do with them, and they were big. I honestly didn't know how to share 'em, and get 'em back and forth. I was sending them through email to clients. I would say, "Here, I'm gonna … " I would find that, because I would have one in mind, or two in mind, after working with one of my athletes … I'd say, "I want you to listen to these couple of podcasts that I did; I think they hit on exactly what we were talking about today, and …" Just, again, it's another form of learning. Every time you listen to a podcast, it's mental training. You are training positive mental habits just by listening to it.

Dr. Todd Kays: I tried doing that, but it was so tedious, and it was taking me so long. I'm like, "There's got to be a better way," and literally, a young person said, "Well, what about SoundCloud?" I looked, and there's … From the medium I use to do my podcast, there's a direct link, lo and behold, to SoundCloud. I was like, "Wow, that was easy.".

Dr. Todd Kays: I think, right now, I have about … I decided at that time, I said, "Well …" I think I might have 100, 120 on SoundCloud now, and I just think, wow, it's easy. People are accessing them, and I get feedback from, "Hey, you have a new follower," or, "So-and-so liked this," I have no idea who they are. I'm still trying to understand that whole process, but I'm like, "This is kinda neat.".

Dr. Todd Kays: You can't, as I've learned from a business side, and that's what I'm grappling with, as a business owner, is that they cannot … On SoundCloud, you can't sell. That's what I'm trying to explore, these other means. If I, in fact, do go that route, I may just stay with … I just enjoy doing these. If it continues to get the word out, and people grow from it, and, certainly from a marketing standpoint, they get to know what we do at my practice, and we have growth that way, that's wonderful.

Dr. Todd Kays: At least in my mind, I don't look at podcasts, and maybe I could be completely wrong, as going to help me retire. I just look at it as all right, this is more of a easy marketing … At least that's the way I've looked at it. Now, I could be wrong, and I could learn from other people that this is a viable income stream.

Dr. Todd Kays: Whether I wanna make it that or not, that'll be my decision down the line. At least I'm exploring the options, because the one thing they do not teach you in psychology, or graduate school, is how to run a business, so I'm learning. I've had to rely on business owners to teach me, and learn from them, because I just … It's not something that comes natural to me.

Brett Johnson: I think podcasting … It's not in its infancy, but it is in its infancy, in the monetization piece to it. What's so fun about it is you can monetize this in any way you want, and at any time that you want. You're right on task that you walked into it with the right mindset. You're doing it for the love of it, for the end-user, and for your business, obviously, as well, too.

Brett Johnson: Are there opportunities down the road? Sure, when it's the right time; when you feel comfortable in doing what you wanna do with it. It sounds as though you've set that up quite well. Your equipment setup, how are you doing this in your office?

Dr. Todd Kays: I literally use my Apple Computer, and I do have a mic that … I don't just do it over the computer. I have learned that the sound quality is better, and I just simply do it that way. I do some editing, because I'm tinkering around with putting intro music, putting a specific closing. Those are in the beginning stages, and those, from my standpoint … I'm just learning those, and those are, for me, time-intensive. I could send them to somebody else, and it would take them 15 minutes, what would take me three hours.

Dr. Todd Kays: I'm tinkering around, but most of the time, I just put my microphone with … To incorporate sound the best. I'm sure it's not anything like professional equipment, but it's, at least, inexpensive right now. If it continues to grow, I certainly would not be opposed at all to doing it more on a professional level, with graphics and things of that nature, which is, I think, ultimately … It is ultimately what I wanna do, because I cannot be … I can be in front of one person, or one team at a time, so, my time is limited, and that's the greatest asset I have right now.

Dr. Todd Kays: In addition to hiring a couple other qualified people, it is a way to get in front of people. I want to give them the best, at least as best as I can. If somebody is paying for a service, or a product, I want it to be high quality. My assumption is I'm going to step that up into a more professional arena, such as this, such as somebody doing the graphics, and things like that. I can do what I'm really, really good at, and what I love. They can do what they're good.

Dr. Todd Kays: That's the whole basis of a team in sports is coaches, you coach your position; players, you play your position. Don't worry about the guy next to you; don't worry about the guy across from you. You have no control. You just do the best you can at your craft. That's all you need to do, and I need to take my own advice on that. I'm getting there.

Brett Johnson: I think you look at it in the best way, I know a lot of people, and you hear these stories of businesses, or individuals, whoever it might be, that look at the equipment options – let's put it that way – and it just freezes 'em up. "Where should I go? What should I buy?" The advice always given is just do it.

Brett Johnson: You can always buy the USB mic in two or three weeks, if you don't like the sound of just recording yourself on the Mac computer. You can always change the room you're in, if you don't like the room ambiance, but you have to start, first, otherwise you'll never know what's comfortable for you. I think you've taken that right approach, step, by step, by step. You jumped in; you did it for the right reason to get going.

Brett Johnson: You mentioned a little bit about future plans. Without laying out specifics, and giving away the farm, or anything like that, what are the future plans for the podcast? Where are you thinking about going with this? We mentioned a little bit about in regards to the membership level, but also, where are you going with the concept, itself, with the podcast?

Dr. Todd Kays: I will continue to do podcasts, simply because I really enjoy doing them, first and foremost. I would like to see them grow, and I want to see my own … First off, I wanna see two things happen. One is I want to see my own abilities to do podcasts improve. The podcasts that I'm doing now, I'm sending them out to a number of trusted people, and I say, "Give me every piece of feedback that you can give me."

Dr. Todd Kays: I have learned so much in just the past 30 days, because they've been giving me honest feedback about what's really good, and how I can sharpen my own skills to, for example, get to the point, or "You're talking about too many points in this five minutes. You need to just choose one of these points." That's the first thing that I'm doing.

Dr. Todd Kays: The second thing is to get, and learn with other professionals who are good at this, and this is what they do, to help me along this process, because I do want to, if I'm going to put a product out … Particularly, I haven't probably worried about it as much, because it was just something fun, and I thought it was helping people, and I really didn't think much beyond it.

Dr. Todd Kays: If it gets to a point where I choose to say this is something that could reach out worldwide, and I start getting that sort of feedback, I really want to have the best product, the best visuals, the best sound. I want it to be very professionally done, and that a person is going to know that this was not just done in his home office, while he was sitting watching TV. This was truly done with a lot of forethought. Then they feel that this – if it is a yearly membership – this was worth it, because this is a high-quality product.

Dr. Todd Kays: I've always held high standards for myself, and I think I'm at that place where I was rushing … I honestly say I was rushing ahead with these podcasts, and it was my wife who said, "Slow down. You're throwing a lot of things out there. The reason that you're a little stressed is because that's not you. You're more methodical; you're high quality. Slow things down, and start doing things the way you know this should be done." It was kind of odd that you had called me to do this, because I'm just in that process of thinking about all these things right now.

Brett Johnson: Interesting. Yeah, that's good. What advice would you give to any business that comes to you … "Love your podcast; love what you're doing. Heard your interview on Note to Future Me …" What advice would you give to a business that is considering this as a marketing tool – a podcast?

Dr. Todd Kays: I would first say make sure that you truly wanna do it. Make sure that this is something that you're speaking from your heart, and you're not doing it to simply make money, and jump on this trend, or … I shouldn't say it's a trend. This new medium we're using to get information out. I would say that it has to be certainly something you truly believe in, and you have a desire to truly get your message across – whatever that message might be – if it's financial, if it's psychological, if it's legal, whatever the case might be. I would say that would be my first thing.

Dr. Todd Kays: Then, the second thing is I would say just start doing it; practicing. The thing I would do that I didn't do it first: give it to some people; just have 'em listen to it first, before you just send out, because you may not know what you just did, if you don't listen to it, and you may have some background noise that you didn't even realize. Then it comes across as, "Well, I'm not gonna listen to that person again, because that sounded like he was in an airport while he was doing his podcast. I don't wanna listen to that."

Dr. Todd Kays: I would say that is … Really want to do it, and feel passion in your heart about your message. Then, like you were saying earlier, just jump in, and try it, and do it. Then, just keep refining the skills around it, and use a support team. As I'm learning, a lot sooner than I have, is to rely on video experts, rely on audio experts, rely on social media experts. Let them help you along the way, because it will be a much better product, and ultimately, you'll get to do what you're good at, and you'll allow them to do what they're good at.

Brett Johnson: [coughing] Edit point. Okay, hold that back so [inaudible] Just on the end of a cold. Okay, good. Thank you for being a guest on my podcast. I appreciate it. The insight you've given is dead on, and I think we read a lot about this in Facebook posts, and groups for podcasters, and such, but I think it comes off more genuine, when you hear somebody talk about it, and through their experiences.

Brett Johnson: That is exactly what the focus of this podcast is. I love that you're at the grassroots piece of this podcast, and what you're doing with it, and learning over, now, over 400 episodes; maybe only half published, but, at the same time, you've got them in a bank, and you're ready to do … You're looking to the future, as well, with what you're doing with this. I think it's exciting, as well, that it continues to evolve with what you wanna do with it. Again, thank you for being a guest. I appreciate it.

Dr. Todd Kays: Thank you for having me. Just by being here, and you forcing me to answer … Not forcing me to answer these questions, but putting these questions in front of me, really forced me to, again, really think about what my next steps are, and really solidify them in my own mind. I appreciate that.

Dr. Todd Kays: I definitely will be listening to your podcast, because these are the exact things I need to learn, and I look forward to hearing other people's perspectives, and learning from them what they're doing, so maybe I can prevent my own mistakes, or just find a way to do things more efficiently, or find people who can help me do things more efficiently.

Brett Johnson: Great. Thank you. Cool. Good deal. All right. Thanks. Yeah, I will-

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Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios, located in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH!

Brett Johnson is the owner and lead consultant at Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. The podcast consultants at Circle270Media have over 35+ years of experience in Marketing, Content Creation, Audio Production/Recording, and Broadcasting. We strategically bring these worlds together with Podcasting.

You can email Brett at to talk more about your new or established business podcast.

Millennials Choosing Podcasting Not Blogging

Why Millennials Are Choosing Podcasting Over Blogging To Build Their Personal Brands


According to a recent Forbes online article, Has Millennial Travel’ Gone Too Far?, Millennials are on the move far more than generations before them and their mobile devices are their lifelines.

Millennials want to stay connected. Millennials want to make their mark. To do these, more and more millennials are developing a personal, as well as a professional brand, that they can expand into a growing community.

Early on, Millennials was encouraged to create blogs and websites with portfolios.

Podcasts were rarely mentioned. But Millennials have found that podcasts can be an important part of their branding toolkits – important enough that they appear to be abandoning blogs for them.

This transition could be trace back as Millennials realized that they themselves were not reading many blogs. According to a recent online article from Jeff Bullas, over 41% of Millennials have no patience for text content that is too long. So if you want to say something, say it quick and say it well.

If they were not reading blog posts that much, their own audiences were probably not either.


Why do podcasts appeal to Millennial podcasters and Millennial listeners?

Podcasts are great media for those with short attention spans. And today’s attention economy.

With their ever present earbuds in place, listeners can work out, drive to and from work and walk their dogs. In these environments, video doesn’t work. And blog posts don’t work.

Podcasts allows content to be delivered in a genuine, natural tone, so the podcaster can establish who they are as a person.

Podcasts are also a great medium to break down typically dense or “boring” topics like real estate, finance or insurance into digestible chunks.
And there are some successful examples of podcasting by Millennials who have chosen this medium over blogs to promote their personal brand.

  • Cristen Conger and Caroline Ervin began a podcast, “Stuff Mom Never Told You,” in 2014.
  • Katie Roach began her “Drunk Sex” podcast, hoping to open up conversations about sex.

Podcasting allows these Millennials to build a better rapport with their fans, with proven results in higher loyalty, higher engagement and more authority online.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios, located in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH!

Brett Johnson is the owner and lead consultant at Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. The podcast consultants at Circle270Media have over 30+ years of experience in Marketing, Content Creation, Audio Production/Recording, and Broadcasting. We strategically bring these worlds together with Podcasting.

You can email Brett at to talk more about your new or established business podcast.