Broadcasters Meet Podcasters?

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Brett:
As you know, Marty, Broadcasters Meet Podcasters, a track this year at Podcast Movement '19.

Marty:
Yeah, hallelujah. Finally.

Brett:
Three years, hallelujah. No, but three years in a row, Jacobs Media has presented this track at Podcast Movement. Podcast Movement is coming up for 2019 in Orlando, middle of August. I think it's pretty much the start of hurricane season. Yay!

Marty:
It's beautiful that time of year.

Brett:
Oh, yeah. But it's a conference track that Podcast Movement has expanded on, and Jacobs has really, actually, done a pretty good job of bringing it along. I think, giving more focus for broadcasters to take a look at podcasting.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think there's been any organization as active as Jacobs when it talks about bringing podcasting into the fold of broadcast.

Brett:
I believe so. You're right. They've done a great job with it. They've done a great job with it. Yeah, I think they're looking at it holistically, that it's a good thing. Don't look at it as a distraction. You can make some money from it, and you can help your clients make some money from it.

Marty:
It's an additional product in your arsenal.

Brett:
Exactly. Exactly. And we are audio experts.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Or so proclaimed to be when we were in radio.

Marty:
Yeah. That was, like, just a little 25-year stint of my life though.

Brett:
Mine too, and now we're out.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
Now we're out, and we're talking about it outside, looking in. But I wanted to kind of go over what's going on with this Podcasters Meet Broadcasters. I should say, I'm gonna call it right, Broadcasters Meet Podcasters track.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
A lot of radio people there. Now, I'll give you a little background when I went to Podcast Movement '18 last year in Philly.

Marty:
Okay.

Brett:
I can tell you without a doubt, there are very few podcasters that went to the Broadcasters Meet Podcasters track.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Guarantee it. And I heard of that, and I saw that very few did. They didn't mingle outside either. Radio people kind of kept their cliques together. You saw them going in their hoards walking around.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah. You guys are recording from your house. We have these big-ass studios.

Brett:
Exactly.

Marty:
I'm not down with this.

Brett:
Hopefully, this year that will be different. I hope so because I think both can learn from each other. In a holistic way, both can learn from each other. Podcasters can learn from broadcasters and vice versa.

Marty:
I hope so. I hope so.

Brett:
Yeah. It would be nice.

Marty:
Because radio has forgotten so much of what it actually is that that's why so many broadcasters are taking the leap into podcasting.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
Or so many guys are finding their way over to XM Sirius.

Brett:
It's the freedom. It's the, "Hey, I can do that now? I don't have to look at a clock anymore?" Sort of thing.

Marty:
Right. Or the consultant.

Brett:
That too. Right.

Marty:
Beat 'em out, yeah.

Brett:
So, looking at what's going on, just to kind of give us some highlights so we have a reference point, and listener, we'll get you to where we're gonna go with this, so you kind of know what's going on, but it kicks off on Wednesday. They have a keynote speaker-

Marty:
Are they the ones that really screwed the pooch to radio? Is that what happened?

Brett:
You know, I think I've heard that.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
I think so. But, you know, that's another episode. We'll talk about that. A track called Radio Leaders on Their Podcasting Strategies. True Crime, Turning Local Events into Hit Podcasts. Nothing like hitting a category that's hit its peak already.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Yeah.

Marty:
Yes, [Serial]. I remember that from a few years ago.

Brett:
Yeah. Branded Podcast Revenue Opportunities for Radio. Please put a bookmark in that, folks, because we're gonna come back to that, all right? And have a little bit of fun with that one.

Marty:
Not that it's a bad thing.

Brett:
No, but we're gonna … That's the main reason that Marty and I are together today. Keynote NPR and Audible veteran, Eric Nuzum – The Tweet that Could Define Podcasting Future.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
10:1,5 that day, What Public Radio Knows that You Don't. And I tell you, folks, they're probably not going to tell you during that session. Real Listener Feedback – Podcast Movement's First Live Focus Group, could be interesting. Raise Your Voice, Smart Speaker Strategy for Podcasts. That may be the best one of the whole track. And that's another episode that we'll have to venture into in regards to-

Marty:
I have to hear why that might be the best.

Brett:
…audio search.

Marty:
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, assuming Google get-

Brett:
Setting yourself up for audio search. Yeah.

Marty:
Yeah, yeah.

Brett:
Podcast Makeover: Professional Broadcasters Critique Up and Coming Podcasts. Don't even go to that one.

Marty:
No, that's so lame.

Brett:
Popular Music in Pocasts. Here it comes. Big, big news coming out during Podcast Movement about podcast music.

Marty:
Really?

Brett:
Yes.

Marty:
Talk to me about that.

Brett:
I don't know what it is yet, but it's coming out. They're making a big, big stink about this other podcast, I'm hearing, that know the inside scoop. You're gonna be able to get music in your podcast for some price. May be not bad pricing.

Marty:
Really?

Brett:
It's gonna happen. Yeah.

Marty:
That's fascinating.

Brett:
They've come up with a solution for it.

Marty:
Right. For those of you who don't know podcasting, it has been virtually taboo to put like a Bob Dylan song or a Beatles song or a Lady Gaga song, and not because of any opposition to the music, but because the licensing is so … It is so complex to figure out exactly what you would pay to put a song in a podcast, and there's just no way to do it, so this is really, really exciting stuff.

Brett:
Yeah.

Marty:
So, all those podcasts you hear them using like, you know, actual tunes off your radio and XM Sirius, they're doing it illegally right now. Every one of them. Every one of them.

Brett:
Right. What this will do is open up another genre of podcasts.

Marty:
That's right. Absolutely.

Brett:
It will open it up in regards to a lot of people that are wanting to do a music podcast. Whether it's maybe a podcast all about Rush, all about Depeche Mode, whatever, you're gonna be able to do that now. It's gonna cost you a little bit of money. Again, I don't know the details, but apparently this news is going to be very beneficial to podcasting and podcasters.

Marty:
Sure. I'm excited about that. I would go just for that for crying out loud.

Brett:
Later on during Podcast Movement, Speed mentoring, Talk Directly with Podcasting Leading Experts.

Marty:
No idea what that is.

Brett:
Apparently there would be some from radio, but okay, anyway. Now they've actually … I take that back. They do have some experts within the field, like Rob Greenlee.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Dave Jackson.

Marty:
Eh.

Brett:
Seth Wrestler.

Marty:
Okay, Seth, I buy into.

Brett:
Ed Ryan, I-

Marty:
What qualifies as an expert? Is it just a guy that's done a podcast?

Brett:
I guess, or like an Ed Ryan who puts together a daily-

Marty:
Clickbait.

Brett:
-clickbait. Yeah. So, that's it right there. Let's kind of go back to that branded podcast idea.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Just recently. This is kind of inside baseball stuff. There was a webinar helping radio stations increase their podcast revenue called Branded Podcasts – How to Sell Branded Podcasts.

Marty:
Very catchy.

Brett:
And it was a good webinar. I'm not gonna say who put it together because it's really neither here nor there. It's just knowledge that it's out there to help radio stations with their clients to create podcasts. Now, both you and I know branded podcasts are a good idea.

Marty:
Absolutely. Fantastic idea.

Brett:
They are a good idea. After this conference you're going to be called upon as a business owner, "Hey, we're doing a branded podcast. This is our new initiative. We wanna talk to you about this. This is the coolest, newest thing, and here's what we're going to do." So, let's talk about what to be aware of.

Marty:
Yeah, sure.

Brett:
And also the pros and cons, what to be aware of. For me, the pros are, yeah, look at it. It's a radio station. They have studios, professional studios, because if you don't have it in your office or your business, it's an opportunity.

Marty:
Okay.

Brett:
Okay. What do you think pro?

Marty:
Well, pro, I think it is a way to extend your voice. I think podcasting is an evergreen medium that is a no waste medium because it goes out into the interwebs, and it stays there forever, so as long as you're putting your message out that represents your business, your business model, your plan, your ideals, do it.

Brett:
I think we have a lot of list of cons for this one, though, that's the problem.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Again, both of us having the large amount of time in radio, we know exactly what drives radio and radio reps and radio station ownership and management.

Marty:
Right. And to be clear, Brett was in the sales and marketing side of radio. I did some sales and marketing, but I was primarily in programming.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
So, that being said-

Brett:
That being said.

Marty:
-there are cons of using radio for all of that.

Brett:
Namely, just beware that they have incentives of their own to get you to do this. Okay. The concept is going to be they're gonna come in and talk to you about … They're gonna create this branded podcast potentially, maybe, it's going to be one of their on-air people that's gonna do a podcast about local breweries, okay? And you own a local brewery, you know? You make your own beer, and that sort of thing, a craft brewer, okay? So, they're gonna wanna talk to you. They're gonna wanna interview you along with five or six other craft brewers in your market. Each episode stands alone. It's gonna be a great series. It will be because that on-air person is into craft brewing.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
They love it. They want to get into your business. They want to know "Why'd you do this?" And the different flavors, what's coming up and such like that. So, that series is gonna be out on their website, and it's gonna be promoted, listened to.

Marty:
It's gonna be easy to talk about for any of the personalities that they have recording breaks, you know, they're gonna be able to cross-mention it across all their, you know?

Brett:
To that end, say yes to that.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
It's a great PR piece. Take the audio. Use it for yourself. They're gonna talk to you about it. You're gonna have a blast.

Marty:
Yep.

Brett:
About two or three weeks later, you're gonna get a call from your sales rep saying, "Hey, did you have a fun time?"

Marty:
"Mm-hmm."

Brett:
"You want to create your own podcast?".

Marty:
"Ooh!"

Brett:
"We can do that. Let's do that."

Marty:
"Okay. What are we gonna talk about?"

Brett:
"Well, what do you wanna talk about?"

Marty:
"Oh, no. But I, you know, I do my craft brew, I do my brewery."

Brett:
"Right, right, right. But let's talk about your craft brewery. So, what do you wanna talk about?"

Marty:
"Uh, my beer."

Brett:
"Okay, so let's go in studio, and we'll talk about a beer week. How's that?"

Marty:
"Um, sounds a little thin."

Brett:
"Yeah, it does, doesn't it?"

Marty:
"Yeah."

Brett:
"But we're gonna charge you $3,000 a month to do that though because-"

Marty:
That's right, because you're gonna get an ad schedule with it.

Brett:
"-an ad schedule, our radio station's a bullhorn. I have qualitative here to show you that our listeners loved craft beer."

Marty:
"Ratings that show you have?"

Brett:
"No, no, no, not ratings qualitative because, you know, we don't subscribe. You know, I've got all qualitative to show you."

Marty:
"Okay."

Brett:
"And we're gonna put it on our website, but I can't show you the numbers on the website, the views on it, you know?"

Marty:
"Yeah, because that just doesn't work right now."

Brett:
"Yeah, and don't ask me how many people really go to our website or listen to audio on our website."

Marty:
Right. It kind of reminds me of one of those infomercials from the '70s where the Asian kids were, like, slamming their hands down on the thing.

Brett:
Exactly.

Marty:
That's how many there are.

Brett:
So, what we're saying is yes, the follow-up call from the sales rep could be good. If you're interested in doing a podcast, go ahead and do it, but be careful. Know why you're doing this podcast.

Marty:
Have strategy.

Brett:
Have a strategy of why you're doing it. What we're saying is the radio station probably won't bring a strategy to you.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
It's the they're going to take the emotional high that you're off of from doing that podcast and having all that love given to you by the on-air person and the sales staff and maybe a few listeners that came in and said, "Wow, we heard you on Joe show podcast."

Marty:
Think about this, man, isn't it natural that when somebody does something like that, they go, "Hey, guys, I'm going to be, and check this out." They're gonna tell all their closest friends and family. They're gonna tell all their best customers about it, so they make sure that they know that this podcast they're on, that's about me.

Brett:
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Marty:
It's about my expertise. You're gonna get instant gratification from the closest people around you. That's great. They're already fans of yours.

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
You don't need a radio station to talk to them. You don't need to pay a radio station $3,000 a month to talk to them because you can talk to them, and chances are they will pay you for your beer.

Brett:
Right. Probably so.

Marty:
Just saying. There's a chance.

Brett:
Right. So, us giving you this information is arming you to throw back some questions to them because, again, inherently, this whole idea is a good idea because the radio station does have opportunities to help you grow your business. If you strategically take a look at how you create your own podcast as a season, okay? Could be that they come back and say, "Hey, would you like to create your own series?" Could be six or seven episodes. Good. Look at it that way. Now, look at how you're gonna do those six or seven, okay? Is your craft brew location, okay? Are you a big soccer base?

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Maybe you should be talking about soccer with it. You know your clientele.

Marty:
Right. What is the culture and lifestyle of the people that you see coming in your doors? Who is it that is buying? If you have distribution on a local, statewide, or regional basis, what are the demographics, psychographics of the people that are buying your particular product? What is it that is attractive to people about your product? And then, try to know as much about that person's lifestyle, and talk as much about that kind of thing within your podcast. Is it soccer? Is it dark beers, you know?

Brett:
Any sports. Right. It could be a food pairing with the beer.

Marty:
Sure. Absolutely.

Brett:
Anything that's happening. What you're not going to get is what we just talked about this last two minutes, you're not gonna get that from sales rep.

Marty:
Yeah. You're gonna have to go in there with that yourself.

Brett:
Yes. It's not gonna happen. It's not going to happen.

Marty:
Absolutely. If you do not go in there with it yourself. In fact, here's what they'll do, "Well, you know, what I was really thinking was just, like, we just come in here and we talk. We just talk."

Brett:
Because that's what the on-air personality wants to do.

Marty:
Well, but the thing of it is the on-air personality wants to do that because the on-air personality has about 15 other things that they have to do back at the station because radio has bled itself dry of having enough people and workforce in place to be able to do anything effective. Which is why we don't have anything called local radio, by and large, anymore. Even stations that are "dominating local radio" aren't local radio anymore.

Brett:
So, you are going to have to come in with your own concept.

Marty:
Yes.

Brett:
You are going to have to stress that you're going to do this. They are not the professionals in this field.

Marty:
Not a bit.

Brett:
Not in the least. They're professionals at selling you airtime to support it.

Marty:
Yes.

Brett:
And that's where they're getting their commission is selling you the additional airtime that you're going to buy to promote your podcast.

Marty:
Yep. Now, here's what I always find interesting, okay? Because you can find out how popular, what kind of authority the radio station has online. You can find that out. Look at community events that are real popular, and just do a search for that community event. If a radio station's website pops up to the top on that one, that's not really their authority. That's that event's authority. Look to see, though, why people go to that station. Why are people going to that station? Now, what we do know about radio is that radio still has listeners. It still has listeners.

Brett:
You bet. You bet.

Marty:
But where they disconnect with this is that they do not have any idea of how to put a strategy together to make a podcast successful for a business. They might have podcasts of their own where their radio hosts do podcasts that are basically just riffs off their show like after hours, but they don't have any track record, none whatsoever, of building shows that are solely based on the universe of this business. When you go online, you're stepping outside of the universe of that radio station, and you're stepping into the internet. So, Mr. Business Owner, what's your universe? That's where that radio station has to go and, if they don't take you there, they have no strategy to take you outside of their universe and then place you solidly within where your wheelhouse is, move on dot org.

Brett:
What they're going to suggest is, that because it's such a match of your category business to their listeners, that, yes, that podcast should live on their website without telling you that, number one, most people don't listen to website, they listen to podcasts on websites.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
It's on your smartphone.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
Okay? Most radio station smart apps are not designed to play audio as a podcast.

Marty:
That's right. Because they want to push their live stream. They want to push their live signal.

Brett:
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Thirdly, if you do want to do this, get away from the website. Yes, great, that your audio, your podcast, your series can live on their website, but if they don't suggest that you have this podcast live on its own, that it can be found in Apple podcasts, Spotify, TuneIn, all the other platforms that are the norm for podcast listeners outside of the radio station, they're doing you a disservice, and they are not going to suggest this.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
They're not going to do it.

Marty:
That is correct.

Brett:
That may be the biggest red flag. If you do not hear them advise you to do that or to help you do that, runaway.

Marty:
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Runaway.

Brett:
Because that message that you've crafted and you spent a lot of time putting together that series of seven, you get excited about, and it just lives on their website, and it goes nowhere else, you've wasted your time.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
You really have in the long run.

Marty:
It's kind of interesting because I left radio in 2002. I snuck back in when we had an emergency down in Nashville, and I got back involved in radio there for a couple of years, but I left radio in 2002. Then, from 2005 on, or 2005 to about 2008, I did a podcast called Nothing Flashy. It was just me talking into a microphone about current events and daily things. I got so many bookings off of that back then, and now the industry, it is an industry now, is just swelling like crazy.

Marty:
So, when you talk about things that matter to your core customer in a way that bridges that gap from where they're at to your business, that's when your business becomes infinitely more important to them, and they are infinitely more likely to do business with you. Radio stations don't get that yet because they're not even doing that with their own podcasts, outside of NPR. NPR is willing to walk away from the signal. NPR is willing to walk away from the signal, which is why they're being successful with their podcasts.

Brett:
They get the emotional tie that a podcast can have with your audience that you're building this image of your business. Again, we go back to the craft brewing that every category is competitive. Craft brewing is very competitive. You can buy craft brew pretty much anywhere you want, so what makes that one logo different than the other? There's a story behind why your craft brew is better than the other in your mind, and it's valid. You've got to tell people.

Marty:
Yeah,

Brett:
And this is a great platform to do so, and that lends toward any business category.

Marty:
That's right. That's exactly right.

Brett:
Any business category. What we're trying to lay out here, and we're being very negative about radio and by design because we do know the ins and outs. We both have been in it, in and out, for 25 years. I left it close to two years ago. We do know their drive, and it's not necessarily to your benefit, okay? I think they're trying, but there are some pieces missing to this that you've got to be aware that you're gonna spend, I guess I look at it as spend a lot of time for nothing, and you're gonna get turned off by doing a podcast because it didn't do what you wanted it to do.

Marty:
Right, and you're gonna say, "Well, if a radio station can't make it go, well, then gosh, dot, dot, dot …"

Brett:
Right.

Marty:
Well, here's the deal. People have "purchased ads" from radio stations for years that didn't work. The reason they didn't work is because the "marketing consultant", did not care enough to tell the person, "Okay, in order to reach your audience effectively to generate revenues for you, you're going to have to do this many commercials in a week," because they were afraid you were not going to write the check, so, what they did is they backed down from it, from what would be really effective to only speak to your pain and tolerance. What is the tolerance level you have for curing the pain that you have right now by not having customers?

Marty:
Okay, so if it would be, for instance, in Columbus, Ohio, you know, a budget of $3,000 to $5,000 a month would not be really anything big. That would be a very common ad budget. Same in Nashville, but that would be just your average schedule. A strong schedule, if your business brand needed it to convey that message, could be as much as $10,000 or $12,000 a month, and people are like, "Oh, my goodness, that is a lot of money." It's a lot of money if you're not seeing any money coming back in …

Brett:
Right. If it doesn't work, I've got a toilet you can flush it in.

Marty:
Right on.

Brett:
Everybody does.

Marty:
The thing of it is, though, you have to make sure you're paired with the right people to get your voice heard.

Brett:
That is exactly the message we are putting together here for you for this podcast is that if you have an interest in doing a podcast, great. You got excited to be on that on-air host's podcast. Great, you know, talking about craft brewery. Fantastic. You got a nice little PR case out of it. People talked about it. They're excited about it. They come back. You do want to do a series. Okay. Here are some steps that you do to take to protect yourself, to protect your time, to make sure that it does work.

Marty:
You know, here's the other thing, too, and this is just kind of where it's at. You really need to, you know, you're the owner of the business, and your marketing, your advertising is really created in order for you to go ahead and go about your business. We already know that the radio station is going to send somebody over to you that's going to have this strategy to go ahead and exploit all the facets of your business. I cannot help but think that even by calling Brett or myself or another, you know, I can't speak for other podcast production companies. I don't know anybody. I've known Brett for maybe 25 years now.

Brett:
Mm-hmm.

Marty:
Yeah, when we worked for the same company. But I know that we would both be willing to just, "Look. We don't have to produce it. Go ahead and produce it with a radio station, but let's talk through a strategy. Let's map out a strategy for you," I think, would you be happy to do that?

Brett:
Sure. You bet. Because I do believe that this strategy that the radio stations putting together for you does make sense. There are just parts that are missing that won't make it happen right.

Marty:
Right.

Brett:
Because they don't have, we're just going to call it just reality, podcast consultant, on their staff to know how to use podcasting to its most effective being.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
I don't care if it's one episode or six or three years in, there's a strategy to this as with any marketing tool, and that's what podcasting is – a marketing tool. It's not just a fun and games. You can have fun doing it, of course. I encourage you. Don't do it unless you have some fun, but there is some strategy to it because this can become something very, very versatile, important, long tail, that can be talked about for a very long time.

Marty:
Sure. And it can be repromoted over and over and over again.

Brett:
If done right.

Marty:
That's right.

Brett:
If done right.

Marty:
But you have to do it correctly. So, you know, if you have questions about those types of things, you can reach out to me, and I'll go ahead and put out my email address info@podovox.com. Info at P-O-D-O-V-O-X dot com. And, Brett, you can reach him at Circle 270 Media, what's your email?

Brett:
Podcasts@circle270media.com. But I think the main thing is really go to our websites, honestly, when it comes down to it.

Marty:
Sure.

Brett:
Websites, let's talk about your website.

Marty:
Sure. P-O-D-O-V-O-X Podovox.com.

Brett:
And you can go to Circle270Media.com as well. If you're in Marty's area, or it's a little bit more convenient to talk to him face to face or whatever, we'll flip back and forth. It's not a problem, so.

Marty:
Sure. Yeah.

Brett:
But, you know, we're pretty much worldwide when it comes down to it.

Marty:
That's the truth.

Brett:
We're here to help, and honestly, we both have gotten into and are doing podcast consulting because we love the medium.

Marty:
Sure. I was talking to somebody about coming up here and doing this with you because we're recording this out of really nice studios here in Columbus, Ohio where Brett works in conjunction with them. It's Studio-

Brett:
511 Media.

Marty:
511 Media. I'm so sorry.

Brett:
No.

Marty:
Beautiful studios. Better than many, many radio stations I've worked at. Actually, it reminds me of the CD101 studios when they first launched down on South High Street.

Brett:
That would be the best analogy.

Marty:
Yeah.

Brett:
Best example.

Marty:
It really does.

Brett:
We were talking about that before we started recording, radio stations that would have something like this, and you're right because of what they do with some live bands and interview situations. Yep. You're right [cross talk]

Marty:
You know, the thing of it is is that you can come in here into this studio and sit down and record … The sound's pretty good, I think, right? What you're listening to right now? Other than it being my voice, because there's no sweeter sound to anybody than their own voice and their own name, right?

Brett:
Their own voice, right, right.

Marty:
If you're in the Columbus area, for sure, you want to be working with Studio 511. If you are down in Lexington, Kentucky, or if you are in Nashville, Tennessee, or if you are in Louisville, Kentucky, that's really where I am working. I live in eastern Kentucky now, rural eastern Kentucky, because I'm around family. The cool thing is, is that I have the ability to be in Nashville and Lexington and Louisville and even Huntington, West Virginia, very quickly and very easily, and I don't actually have to be there with you to make this happen, what?

Brett:
Right. I know. It's magic. Yes, it's magic. No, that's the way the world is right now too. But, yeah, please give us a call, email, contact, if you are looking at expanding any ideas at a radio station has brought to you. Again, we're not all negative about radio, but I think there's some opportunities that if done wisely, we'll work to your benefit.

Marty:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, give us a call.

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Joining me is Marty Daniels, owner of Podovox Professional Podcast Services.

Podcast Movement 2019, or PM19, includes a conference track entitled Broadcasters Meet Podcasters. One session in this track is called Branded Podcasts: Revenue Opportunities for Radio.

We have the inside information about this session, and offer our insights to radio advertisers who are going to be presented this marketing idea.

The good and the bad.

For the third consecutive year, Jacobs Media is partnering with the organizers of Podcast Movement conference. This track is designed to help the radio and podcast industries to discuss how the two sectors can work together. In what’s been dubbed a conference-within-a-conference, the three days of sessions in Orlando in August 2019 focuses not only on successful podcasting strategies but also where podcasting is heading.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

We Love Schools

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Brett Johnson:
From Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, this is Note to Future Me. Hi, I'm Brett Johnson, host of the podcast, as well as owner of Circle 270 Media Podcast Consultants. In this episode, we're going to hear from Carole Dorn-Bell. She is a partner at Allerton Hill Consulting and the host of the podcast We Love Schools. Now, full disclosure, Allerton Hill and the podcast We Love Schools is a client of Circle 270 Media Podcast Consultants, but I did want this story to be heard about a consulting firm doing a podcast. This consulting firm, Allerton Hill Consulting, does no advertising for themselves. So, why a podcast when a podcast in itself could be a branding tool, can be considered advertising?

Brett Johnson:
I think Carole does a great job of explaining why they thought of using a podcast, why they are using the podcast, and how they're using the podcast, not necessarily to support Allerton Hill Consulting, but to do a whole lot more. It's a great story, and I think it could be a great example for any businesses who are looking at podcasting but are afraid that it could come off, as she calls it, too schmaltzy, too much of an advertisement for their business. It doesn't have to be, and I think We Love Schools is a really good example of that and, hopefully, you get a lot of good information from this interview. I want to thank Carole for being a part of the podcast, and hope you enjoy this episode, and thanks for taking notes with me.

Brett Johnson:
Well, Carole, thanks for being a guest on my podcast. I appreciate it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I don't think I've ever been a guest on a podcast all this time.

Brett Johnson:
Haven't you so far?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No.

Brett Johnson:
I was going to ask you about that in email if this was a new experience or if I should be welcoming you a different way because, you know, "Five time guest," you know, that sort of thing.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It's new, and it's weird for me to be on this end.

Brett Johnson:
Well, that's cool. Good, good. Well, as I start with my podcasts, I usually ask my guests nonprofits that they support with their time, talent, treasure, whatever it might be, just to give a little plug to nonprofits at the beginning, since we're going to be so business oriented toward the end.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
This one's easy for me. I started, and I fully support the Olentangy Dyslexia Network. My two children are dyslexic, and we, years ago, quickly found that we had trouble with getting them properly identified, which is in accordance with the law that you have to identify, find and identify these kids and getting them the services. We work, of course, within our school system, which is Olentangy. They've done a great job over these last number of years, and they've really become a leader now, but we've just found as we've gotten out, that dyslexic services are really far behind for kids. But at any rate, we've done-

Brett Johnson:
Really? You hear so much about it, you would think that it's on task.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
You would, and they need a very specific type of tutoring. Their brains just work differently, and especially my older one is very dyslexic. Of course, all dyslexics are very dyslexic, you know, I should qualify that. I mean, you have it, you have it, but it was just a heartbreaking experience, but very formative, I think, for all of us within the family. I'm not dyslexic. I don't know anything about it, but once we learned that our oldest child was, we were all in in terms of supporting her, and we were willing to change the world for her, and so that is very close to my heart. It is a cause I will never let go of in my lifetime.

Brett Johnson:
Well, that lends toward the area you are in, public schools, schools, supporting public schools, basically, in essence, of talking about that. Let's talk a little bit about that, your background and history and also the company you're a part of.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, sure. I'm with Allerton Hill Consulting. We're a full-service consulting firm. We work exclusively with schools. As I tell superintendents, my job is to make sure your goals are accomplished, your 30,000-foot goals. We're not a replacement for a communications person, a day-to-day person. So, if you want to talk about lice or the lunch menu, that's not us.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, right, right.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
If you need to start having the conversation with your community about facilities and the need for new facilities and why you're looking into that in a very informational way, of course, or it could be something like redistricting. We don't do the redistricting work, but it's weaving the conversation with the community as to the need and why you're looking at these things. It's more the 30,000-foot view.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Okay. How did the process begin to talk about a podcasting? You're very insulated in regards to your business, you know, who your business is, who you're targeting and such. Why a podcast for Allerton, and what were those first discussions like to go, "Okay, hey, this podcast thing, we should look at it," how did that begin for you?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We do have a very specific niche and, Joel Gonyea, my business partner within the firm, came to me and said, "I think this is a great idea." He's a big podcast listener. By the way, he's dyslexic too. I feel like I'm surrounded by them, like, you know, like my life. I mean, things really come to you for a reason. Your life just all makes sense, I think, the older you get, so I'm to that point. At any rate, he came to me, and he takes in content very differently than I do. We're a good yin and yang in a whole lot of ways, but he came to me … and I'm also a big podcast listener in general. I have my definite favorites out there. He said, "Let's do this." You know, we're talking to, in working with our clients out there, we're encountering all these really cool things that they're doing, and let's give it a larger platform, and yeah, it could be good for business.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Honestly, to our core, all of us within the firm, we're deeply, deeply committed to public schools and into that work and, therefore, to the work that our clients are doing, so it's not a business, per se, to us. We never view it like that. It's just a calling, and so the podcast is really our venue for providing this platform. Public schools take so many hits all the time out there, as we all know, and largely they're unwarranted. They're doing a lot of really cool things out there with, sometimes, very few resources and, especially, when I'm out there talking with, you know, I can talk to a super affluent school district that has more resources … None of them really have a whole lot of resources, honestly, you know, when you really look at their budgets, but that's a whole different story.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Some of the super affluent school districts, it's easy for people to say, "Oh, that's where the talent is, and that's where they're doing the really innovative things." Well, that's not true. If you go out to some of these districts in Appalachia, and I've interviewed them, they're doing some really cool things. I did a podcast recently about a summer lunch program where they're taking this blue bus all around, and it was a really cool podcast, and I felt like it was such a creative, innovative way to identify a need and fill that need to meet that need. That was just in, you know, any school district, Ohio kind of thing, but they're doing something really cool out there, and that's worth people knowing about.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Well, and it's funny you make the comment that you've had a conversation with Joel that the podcast doesn't necessarily have to bring in business for you, but it's the stories. It's the who is the intended audience, and let's get that information out there. In your mind, do you think that lessens the pressure of what that podcast has to do for you and who you talk to?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, I think it does a lot. It just fits with our mission. When you're in, I think, in the right line of work for the right reasons, you accept that a lot of what you do may not be directly toward the ROI of things. You're planting seeds, and maybe they'll bloom in the future, but it's goodwill, and it puts our name out there and it puts their name out there and I want to show them in a good light. But, yeah, I think actually it does take a lot of the pressure off. Because when I sit down, then, to interview somebody … it's so interesting you ask this question, it's really got me thinking. When I sit down to interview somebody, I approach it more from the standpoint that I'm sitting down and just having this conversation with somebody, so there is no pressure. I really, genuinely, want to know what you're doing, and I want to give it that platform, so I think it does.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah. Well, and then it's coming through to me … full disclosure, you're one of my clients. We've been working together now for, I don't know, a few months. I don't know.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I feel like it's been way longer than that.

Brett Johnson:
I know. I think at the beginning of the year, I think. I don't know. I never really look at the clock and go, "Okay. Hey, it's now a six-month anniversary," kind of thing. Unless it's a year, then I kind of like to make note of that. But, at the same time, noting the content that you've been sending me to edit and then, you know, we help promote and such like that, it's the episodes and the content that you are, especially, in the last couple about the food, okay, the-

Carole Dorn-Bell:
The Blue Bus.

Brett Johnson:
The Blue Bus, as well as the innovative ways of creating this local food, ingesting, bringing locally produced food into a school cafeteria, to me, looks as though those pieces of content are not going to help your business.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No.

Brett Johnson:
Putting that out. It actually, I thought, this is a general public type of podcast that they should be listening to this and knowing what schools are actually doing that's so innovative to help their students do the best that they can by feeding them during the summer with the bus, as well as just a normal school time, to make the best of a situation and get the best out of their students. I thought they were great examples of … Yeah, your target might be superintendents. Okay, great overall, but those two episodes did much more than that.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
They do. Do you know what else? We have so evolved with the podcast too, but do you know what else it does is, I didn't have a relationship with that superintendent prior to that. I didn't know that person. Someone tipped me off, tipped me off? Clued me into that, that sounds like news stuff, right, like, "Hot tip, they're doing this. Go investigate." Someone clued me in, "They're doing this. I think it would make a cool podcast," and so I reach out, and what I find is when I reach out just with an email, you know, "So-and-so said you're doing this cool thing, and I'd like to interview you. The format is friendly, and bah, bah, bah" I have only had one person over the many years we've been doing this say, "You know, I think just not right now," kind of thing. It wasn't even "I'm not comfortable with the platform," it was just kind of not right now.

Brett Johnson:
Sure.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
But, you see, I guess it's the planting of the seeds. Then I interviewed that person, they're satisfied with it, someday down the road, you know, these superintendents, they move up or maybe they just move out and retire, as everybody does toward the end of their career because they're usually toward the tail end of their career. But it's the planting of seeds that I feel like, you know, someday will bloom, but there's no pressure. We don't advertise as a firm. We do no advertisements whatsoever. We don't offer our services or anything. This is, I would say, the closest we come to it, and we really don't push our firm within it.

Brett Johnson:
No, I'd have to say you don't.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We probably should.

Brett Johnson:
I think at the beginning of the podcast, you established who you are. I think that's legitimate, otherwise a listener will kind of go, "Okay, why are they doing this? Who is this business?" Okay, but there's never really a call to action, a hard call to action.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No, we just don't do that.

Brett Johnson:
It just is.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Either people believe in what we do, or they don't. We're all word of mouth.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Which, in essence, it's just a branding podcast for you.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Right.

Brett Johnson:
Ultimately, you know, as a tool.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I guess it is.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, and a networking opportunity too.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
That you get to talk to people that you never would before.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It is. You know, I had somebody on recently, and he was such a good interviewee, and I said to him afterwards, "We gotta do this again. Like come up with a topic because you were really fun and really good in this medium." You know far more about this than I do, truly. You've been, and this is like a very shameless plug on my end, but you've been nothing but great for us to work with.

Brett Johnson:
Well, thank you.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
And so professional. We really appreciate it.

Brett Johnson:
Well, thank you.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I mean that, that's genuine. You don't often have a chance to tell people that.

Brett Johnson:
Sure.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I won't get any more sappy. I'm done.

Brett Johnson:
No, I can handle it. Sappy is good for every once in a while. You know, there's some days you kinda go, "I'm faking it today, aren't I?"

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We all are.

Brett Johnson:
Exactly, you know, and then you hear a couple of pieces and you're like "Okay, maybe I'm doing okay." Everybody needs that occasionally too, so yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
Well you talked about you and Joel having this conversation about the podcast. I know there had to be more people involved because you have more people supporting each time we publish, in regards to putting it on the web and social and such. Let's talk a little bit about that. So, once you and Joel had the conversation, "Yeah, let's do it," what was the next step? What did you do? Who was brought in, and how did you get it accomplished?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We started out with … See, I call what you do "podcast guru", that's your official title in my brain, so we've started out with a podcast guru of sorts who could go through, tell us what equipment to buy, which was so easy. I set it up in my office, and Joel and I started taping. It really is an evolution. We started out taping together, smashing in the whole interview, so the intro and outro that kind of bookend the podcast, we were kind of all doing it at once, and we just learned things as we went along that, well, let me back up.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
You know, right now ours is face-to-face, and we don't tape ours like that, so I don't have this beautiful studio that you have. It's in my office, and so I tape over actually Skype. I call that person at that set hour, I ask them in advance, you know, "Make sure that you have a headset if you can," doesn't always. I've had people try and do it on speaker phone, which is terrible. It was terrible anyway, it doesn't matter what, it's terrible. We've learned because you can't see somebody, if you're doing it that way, we learned it's very difficult to have more than two people, the interviewer and the interviewee on, because they're kind of like planes colliding in the sky, people talking over each other, the awkwardness.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It's like, "Oh, this is so difficult," so I usually, for mine, only want one person. We started out interviewing. We said early on, "Let's interview, let's right away run through our clients. Let's talk with them. Whatever they want to talk about. You know, let's arrive at the topic," and things like that. That's a no-brainer. We interviewed some people within our firm. They were very supportive, and they have been. They haven't been interested in being the interviewer, because we did open that up to everybody who wants to do this.

Brett Johnson:
Oh, okay. Great.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, we did. Right away I said, "You know, I'd like to do this. I mean, I definitely … This is something that interests me," so really Joel and I do it because it is what interested us, but everybody else is like, "Yeah, you got that. You guys go do your thing, and we'll send clients to you."

Brett Johnson:
Well it's always great to have another point of view, another angle of a different interviewer, you bet.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, and I feel like our firm is very democratic or whatever, but we all bring just these different talents and skills, and we're always very sensitive of what do you want to do, and where do you want to be, and this thing that we have, do you want to be a part of it or not? Is that where your skills are and where your love is?

Brett Johnson:
Well, and each one of your members of the team is very visual on the website.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Is it, good?

Brett Johnson:
I think it's neat to put a voice to a person.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
Because it doesn't always come through, though you have the video portion of the website to find, you kind of want to hear how that person sounds.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, yeah. I think so too.

Brett Johnson:
You do, and I think that's neat to go. "Oh, that's Carole, that's Joel, okay."

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's true because, of course, I've looked up Terry Gross, you know, people like that from my favorite … or the guy from This American Life, Ezra? No, Ira Glass. Of course, I've looked him up. What's he sound like? He doesn't look like that!

Brett Johnson:
It's funny you bring up Terry Gross because she was the keynote speaker at last year's Podcast Movement, just happened a year ago, it was in Philly. She comes out and she's this very short, petite lady, but she's in total leather, coolin' it up, you know? She just had this, for as small a person as she is, she had the stage presence and she owned it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Did she?

Brett Johnson:
She owned it, but didn't do a whole lot of movement stuff, but people were just glued because she is what she is. She brought these examples of what she did, her mistakes and bad interviews and things that went really bad, and just over a lifetime, just giving good examples of, okay, you're going to be an interviewer with your podcast, this stuff's going to happen and you live through it. It's funny you bring her up because it was just so funny. Everybody was just enamored by her, but she's just this very petite, leather, you know, cool-looking 60-year-old.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I wish I had that kind of cool.

Brett Johnson:
I know.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I just, I do. I do. I envy that.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah. You're thinking, "Okay, now she's back on her way to WHYY, you know, after the gig, so yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
If I came out like that, my friends would be like, "You need to go back in and change. You can't pull this off."

Brett Johnson:
That's too funny. Oh, my gosh, yeah. Well, good. That's interesting that no one's picked up the baton to want to help, but it's good that you gave that opportunity to them. That's great.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Absolutely.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, exactly. You said you were targeting superintendents with the podcast, but I think, as you said, it's evolved. Let's take a look at when you first began. Of course, you said you were talking to clients already, and you did talk about just a little bit ago in regards to how it's evolved and changed, and the topics are really ever changing and such. At the beginning, what were you thinking about in regards to the content? What did you want to get out there? And, then, how and why did it change over time?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
You know, I worked so hard at the content, at kind of the flow and the questions and kind of the back end of it, and then, because I think a function of two things. It was so labor intensive, and I was so busy with the part of the work that pays the bills on a day-to-day basis, that something had to give. I didn't feel like it always made for … I was putting a lot of work into the back end of weaving the content when I always wasn't … It was difficult for me because I wasn't the expert. I'm going to go back to the Blue Bus. It would be hard for me to fully understand the flow of the questions that need to occur because I only have a cursory level of what that project is about, and so I was making it far harder is what I learned.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Because of those two different issues that I had converging on me, I started with a few of the coming interviews after that to say, "Can you get me about five to six good questions? Good questions so I get the flow, I get what you do, so that we make sure we also cover what you want to cover." I want to accomplish their goals. I don't want to waste their time, and I want them to feel like they got something out of it, too, that people need to know. That's been really effective, and I've stayed with that format, and I feel like it's made for a better interview. Now I don't always stick with the questions that they give me, but it's just this kicking off point, this jumping off point, and it's just made everything so much better. Does that help?

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, I think that's a perfect way of going about it because sometimes there isn't enough information to know about what you want to talk about. Like you said, you were tipped off about this thing happening. I know the bus had TV coverage, so you could probably watch the two-minute piece on the TV. Not a whole lot of information, but the latest episode that you have up talking about the change at this cafeteria in, I forget what school system it was.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Oh, yes. I don't remember, yeah.

Brett Johnson:
I'll look it up. I'll put it in the podcast show notes. But there's probably no information about that, other than going on the website. Their Facebook page was where most of it was, so you could get a little bit of it, but how much time this woman has put into changing everything about the food.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
She was so thoughtful, and I was impressed by how deep her knowledge was. She was really an expert, she really was.

Brett Johnson:
In just, what, two years out of, well, just a handful years at school, right? If I understood that correctly?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, she really was. You're talking about somebody from my generation who, their idea of somebody who runs the food service program is like Adam Sandler's Lunch Lady Land song, which I mean, is just a really, you know, crass kind of thing, but it's a whole different vision. I mean, she's amazing. I should say, too, and this hits, again, to the evolution of how we've changed over time is, yes, the content but, also, we started out, and I haven't looked at the metrics on the back end as of late, but we started out realizing that our target for this podcast are superintendents, which we do have a lot of loyal superintendent listeners, they tell me. I've actually been recognized out there.

Brett Johnson:
Isn't that cool?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It is so weird. It is so weird. I don't even know what to do with it.

Brett Johnson:
You need the leather stuff.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I need the Terry Gross.

Brett Johnson:
(inaudible) the Terry Gross today, right, there you go.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
But also women. Women are big podcast listeners, which I didn't realize until I started getting into this. I don't know if that's still the case, so we've realized those, and those are two very different audiences at times. Not that there's not a lot, well, there's not a lot of female superintendents, but you get what I'm saying. We're talking about kind of, they're just very different. But I've had superintendents refer people to our podcast as PD, a form of PD, listen, and here's-

Brett Johnson:
Oh, really?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, I have. We were even in a book by an educator, that an educator wrote. He presents all over the world, and he recommended our podcast as one of the very few that he recommended to listen to.

Brett Johnson:
That's fantastic.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I felt like, "Wow, this is just really something cool."

Brett Johnson:
Isn't that fun? That you put something together, you don't really go out to do that, it's just to get information out, and things happen around it that organically happen to support it because you're doing the right thing.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Because we're doing the right thing for the right reasons, and we're staying true to that. I think that makes a big difference.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, and I dwell on this piece of it because I think a lot of businesses who don't advertise themselves, just like you talked about, look at this, but they, number one, see it as an advertisement, but it doesn't have to be. And, number two, can be an avenue to brand themselves softly.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
That's why, again, dwelling on this past 15, 20 minutes in regards to the content piece, you're doing it properly.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
And you're having fun doing it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We're having fun. I mean, and if it weren't fun, I wouldn't want to do it. Our work is fun. We love our work, but nobody wants to sit through a sales pitch or feel like.

Brett Johnson:
And they won't in a podcast.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
And you know what? I don't want to give one. I don't know, I feel skeezy. It's just me. It's not me.

Brett Johnson:
And, then, saying that as well too. All the sudden, you're giving an example of what working with Allerton is like.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
That's exactly. That's what this whole thing can do is give an example of those guys sound like they know what they're doing, number one. And number two, she sounds like she'd be fun to work with. She gets it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
And Joel does, too, in the episodes that he records and has done. Let's call them, let's have an interview with them, you know, and see if we can work with them sort of thing.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah. I mean, it's so easy to reach out to somebody. I mean, it's kind of like blind-date-ish, right? But it's so easy to reach out to somebody and they accept, and then you've got this interview and this really cool podcast that you're putting out to people with great information. It's just a great thing.

Brett Johnson:
There's a lot of discussion about, okay, we're going to create a podcast. We've got to publish, what should our schedule be? Every two weeks, every week, every day, blah, blah, blah? You are against the norm, for sure, in regards to when it happens.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
The frequency?

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, the frequency.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Is that a good thing?

Brett Johnson:
Good or bad doesn't matter, does it? Because you're getting noted in books. You are now in the level of professional development, so what? The contents good. I do want to make a point in regards to, really, you don't have a schedule. I'm sure in your mind you do. It's like "Okay, I want to get a couple of them done a month," but a lot of it hinges on if the person's available to talk to, of course. I think, overall, we've been, maybe, doing one to two a month for sure, depends on availability. Probably during the school season, it might be a little bit easier. Let's talk about were you thinking of a frequency schedule, or just like, you know, when this happens, we get it done, but let's make sure we kind of focus on getting something out once a month, a couple of times a month?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes. We, of course, have a schedule in mind, but we're also forgiving of ourselves because this is something we do for fun, right? I'm going to back up a little bit. After we started our podcast and had it going for a while, we contracted with somebody that could kind of audit our podcast and give us some tips and tricks and things like that. All I did was provide a couple different samples, and … But, anyway, he kicked back some really good input for how to improve our podcast, and they were simple fixes that I could do, that I feel like greatly improved them, and Joel had the same feedback, but his was tailored to him, of course. That was really helpful for us. Wait, I forgot your original question even. What was your original question? I was going somewhere. I really, I was going somewhere.

Brett Johnson:
Your plan for frequency.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Oh, plan for frequency.

Brett Johnson:
Right, or the lack of, either way.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Or the lack of. One of the things that he recommended to us was to tape more frequently, tape more frequently, but also divide some of these up. We might be interviewing somebody, and it might be a longer podcast, but create some natural breaks in there where we can separate it out over like, let's say five days. Now we don't do that. It's probably still a good idea. I think our podcasts, they're pretty short. It's not This American Life long, like an hour, which is one of my favorites, but I would say we wind up 10, 20 minutes somewhere in that range, depending on how it goes. I don't know, he seemed to think shorter was better, but I'm not sure how I feel about that, honestly. But otherwise, it's a matter of how busy are we? When can we get people scheduled? But things happen. My electricity went out about an hour before I was supposed to podcast recently. I had to reschedule somebody on out.

Brett Johnson:
Oh, now. Wow, okay, yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, so, you know, there are just some things that happen. People are really good about not canceling or, you know, that kind of thing, they really are. It is somewhat rare, but it just depends on how quickly we can get people scheduled in. I need time in the office. I will tell you, I cannot tape back to back to back to back podcasts. I'm gassed.

Brett Johnson:
It fries you.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It does.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, because you want to be respectful of your guest, and really be on it, but your mind can wander, and you're not as fresh as the first one compared to the fourth one.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
And, especially, even if it is 20 minutes. And you know what? A 20-minute interview is not a 20-minute interview.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No, it's not.

Brett Johnson:
You're on the phone with them 5 to 10 minutes prior, just loosening them "in the green room".

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
And then getting into, and then years always post, you're probably going to talk a little bit afterwards, too.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Then, afterwards, I need to tape my intro and outro, so I need time to kind of reflect, brings together, you know, that kind of thing.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, I think the infrequency is fine. I think the content holds its own. I think you walked into it, right? You and Joel walked into it, right, in regards to investing in yourself. And this isn't a shameless plug to work with a consultant or anybody.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Sure.

Brett Johnson:
But if you're putting money into this, you will get it accomplished. You know there's going to be a bill coming from your hosting platform, the person editing, whoever is involved, even your web designer. You know you're paying people to do certain things for you, it's like, "Oh, why are we paying this, and we're not doing it?"

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
That's probably in the back of your mind. That works for me. If I'm paying for something, it's like, you know what, "I've got to do this. I'm going to do this," because I enjoy doing it anyway, just get it on the schedule.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
When we pay for things, we value them more.

Brett Johnson:
Right.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I mean, it just is.

Brett Johnson:
I think that in itself is a lesson. If you're going to do it and you do everything, but say, "Hey, we'll do it, but we'll do it for free," you're not going to get it done. You really aren't.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Every once in a while, we have the conversation, should we continue with this? And I'm always yes. I like it. I feel like it's off of my regular kind of work that I do, so it diverges from that a little bit, and it's fun and it's interesting, but we always come back to yes with it.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I mean, yeah, it's a little bit of time, but it's worth it.

Brett Johnson:
Right. Well, especially, for the quick feedback you're getting on everything. You're enjoying it, and you're getting these stories that are just (inaudible) like that's cool, and no one else is showcasing it. Nobody else is talking about it. It's giving them exposure outside of their small community. That could be a prime example for any community around the country of these things going on. It's great, yeah. Social media strategy. At the beginning, what were you thinking about doing? And social media, I'm talking about platforms, whether it be Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. Has that evolved? What was targeted? What do you do with supporting, you know, getting the word out?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
With the We Love Schools Podcast specifically?

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, and is it tied in with the business in some fashion, or is it even separate? What were the discussions with that?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We did have some discussion about that, and it is linked off of our Allerton Hill webpage, but it's not very prominent. Within our podcast, we push the We Love Schools website. We don't push our Allerton Hill, and so people go directly there. Twitter, all the social media, it's We Love Schools oriented. It's not toward our firm either. And again, maybe we're making a mistake there, but I don't think so. It feels right for us.

Brett Johnson:
Then it's right.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Right? A lot of it is feel, like if it feels kind of icky, you know, but we have somebody that does run that for us. Now I will, on my work Twitter, I try and post pictures of work, right, so I'll post a picture, usually, and tag different people that I'm interviewing, and tag of course @schoolspodcast, and they will retweet, you know, so like, "Interviewing so-and-so today about blah, blah, blah. Stay tuned," kind of thing, so at least I'm keeping it out there in a different way. And, of course, I find that they retweet it, so it's the planting of the seeds again. It just brings a lot of goodwill.

Brett Johnson:
Especially when you're finding a topic that they're very proud of that they want to talk about. Obviously, that's why they want to be on the podcast is to toot their own horn, perfectly legit, it's fine, because they're looking for avenues to talk about stuff that they're doing. It's great. It's like, "Oh, hey, she's going to interview us. This is a self-plug that doesn't sound like we're talking about ourselves. Someone else is interviewing us about this."

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, I think that's part of the power for them. I mean usually I find that, maybe, they've been able to talk about something at a school board meeting which, if you've ever been to a school board meeting, not many people go, so it's a little bit like if a tree falls in a forest, did it really happen? There's just not the audience, and it's not the best venue, frankly, for something like that to really get it out. Or they might put something in their newsletter, or put something out internally, and I think there's that, yes, absolutely do that, for one, for any that are considering that, but it has a different level of validation when you're on, when you've been asked, you know, maybe by a school's podcast or podcast to be interviewed, that, wow, this is maybe something pretty special, and I think they see that.

Brett Johnson:
Sure. Getting into the, kind of the nuts and bolts, I guess. I gave you these questions ahead of time. You're probably going, "Why does he want to know about that? Do I remember how that happened?" I only bring it up because there are so many options of a hosting platform where you can go to host, whether it's Blubrry, Spreaker, whatever the case might be. You chose Libsyn early on. Do you remember or recall why Libsyn? I only bring it up because there are some really great options out there, or there's some pieces to Libsyn that you thought were attractive compared to others?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No.

Brett Johnson:
Okay.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I have no idea.

Brett Johnson:
Okay, that's fine. It could have been the choice of your editor, and (inaudible) at that.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah. I think it was the magic that occurred, but I mean, that is definitely.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
If you say switch, we will switch. We trust you unequivocally.

Brett Johnson:
Until Libsyn says and does things wrong, I say keep going with it because it's not necessarily a hassle to switch to another podcast platform. If you don't have to, why? You know, until you realize that their numbers really aren't true or their support's really bad and something happened. Just like anything else in life, if you're just dissatisfied with, it really comes down to support. It really does. If something happens, and the support's not there, then you start thinking about it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, we've never had an issue at all. But yeah, I wasn't part those … it's part of the magic that occurred outside of anything.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah. I've got a few go-tos. I've used four or five different ones. (inaudible) I'm interested just to see if the platforms are like. So, for me, this was my first foray into Libsyn, to know what that platform's like. Again, everybody's the same ultimately. It's just the user experience.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I'm a tinkerer like that too. I like to see like, "Oh, what's that like? What's that do?"

Brett Johnson:
What's that look like? What's that do? What doesn't that do you? I think there are some platforms that do better than others specific to what you need. For example, Spreaker, you can go live and live stream on Spreaker. They're the only platform that you can do that, so it's kind of a live radio online, when it comes down to it. If that's not your gig, and you're not interested in doing it, you're not really paying for that option, but okay, that's not really a platform I have to go to if that's never really in the game plan.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah.

Brett Johnson:
I've used that platform quite a bit for live stream for different events and a nonprofit that I work with as well too. Works perfectly. It's just dog and pony show stuff, honestly, you know, but it's different access and those we interviewed thought it was kinda cool.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Oh, I bet. It's intimidating going live.

Brett Johnson:
It is, a little bit, but we always say, "Hey, it's being recorded at the same time. We'll edit for those that, the bigger audience that probably will be listening afterwards, so with the live, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it too much," so it gets out of their minds, so that's fine. Now, you mentioned early, your recording space is your home, home office and such. Let's talk about the equipment that you literally have there at the house.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
So it's a beautiful microphone. It even is pretty to look at. I mean that. I'm rather attached to the whole setup. It's on this easel kind of thing or this arm that I just swing over, and I have my laptop set up and, you know, I'm a planner, so I don't like to leave anything to the last minute. So, before I interview, I get on, I don't know, about 10 minutes ahead of time just to make sure everything's plugged in properly because sometimes your brain shorts out and, with anybody. And wait, where does this plug in and how? I want to make sure that … every once in a while that happens, but I want to make sure that everything is set up correctly.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I've got the right call-in number that I have for somebody, and that I'm good to go, but it's so incredibly simple. It runs off of you know, I call through Skype. It's all through my computer, taped through, I think it's Call Recorder. After I'm done, I upload to you. Now I once made the mistake of, I knew somebody that I was interviewing. We were just having a catch-up session about how the kids and things like that, so I turned the Call Recorder off, forgot, and started interviewing. Now, I just leave it on because I just don't want to leave anything to chance, and I felt like such a bozo.

Brett Johnson:
It won't be the first or last time to do it. As you've noticed me, I'm eyeballing the recording. Every once in a while, I'm making sure it's still red, it's still going on because every system has ghosts in the machine, and whether even you did hit record and it stops like, oh, computer glitch. Great. Okay, and you got to start over wherever you started.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
It happens to everybody. Or run out of space on the computer, that it doesn't record anymore. Yeah, it's happened with a couple of podcasters I work with. They went through a great recording session. In fact, it was specific to Lawyer Talk here that I work with, and halfway in, Steve goes to the computer and looks at it goes, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no," and about halfway through, it stopped.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
And you cannot recreate that magic.

Brett Johnson:
You can't. That was the problem. You can't recreate it. They did to a certain point, but they were all going, "No! Did that piece? Oh, no, no," because it was such a great conversation. I happened to be out in the reception area listening in, and it was a good session. They were having a blast, so you just … you can't, you, and then you got to try to, "Okay, where did it stop? Did we talk about that already?" So it's really hard to recreate, other than just from the very beginning, and it loses its luster when you have to do that. It's kind of tough. It's doable, but it's tough.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It does. It's like having somebody come in mid conversation and say, "What were you guys talking about?" You know, it was so involved, just forget it, like, you know?

Brett Johnson:
You wouldn't get it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Just forget it.

Brett Johnson:
Just forget it, exactly.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We're moving on.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, right, right. Some realities to a podcast recording, especially, over the long haul. I mean, there are bumps in the road. Obviously, our relationship started with a bump in the road.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Not on your part or not on our part.

Brett Johnson:
Because of something happened that we got together and started working together.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes.

Brett Johnson:
Let's talk about some of those bumps in the road. You've had now, how many years recording? There are things that are going to happen. Change of people. We won't ever go there again with that type of conversation. Think of some things because I think it's a good example of it's not all smooth sailing, but you overcome it and keep moving on.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
You know, I think bumps in the road? Every once in a while, I have somebody that I interview that's been passed on to me as somebody that really would have a lot to say or a great topic and, honestly, it's a flat interview, and I feel it. I can feel it, like, either I … One of the things I care about as somebody who's doing the interviewing is, I want to establish that rapport early on with that person. Like I said, I often don't know these people that I'm interviewing, but sometimes the interview's just really flat. Or we might start out in the green room, as you noted so appropriately, having this great conversation, and then we get to the recording of it and they're flat, and it's "What happened?"

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's rare, but it's deflating. It's just the deflating feeling because, as a host, I'm trying to poke and things like this, and to get this going again, get the mojo going, so I think that's one. I care about having, you know, we talked about the frequency, I do want a regular kind of drumbeat of podcasts being released out there and sometimes that's hard. It's really hard around the holidays with people's schedules, and so we find we have to work far in advance come the holidays. We're not always very good about that, but I think for me, the biggest thing … I feel like with the evolution that we've had, we've worked through the bumps in the road through that to make for a better podcast by taping the intro and outro separately outside of the podcast, the main podcast taping.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
We've worked through different things like that or improved kind of the way we're taping the podcast with our delivery. You know, one of the recommendations that I thought was really astute was that our podcast, whoever did our audit, I can't remember who, but he mentioned refer to listeners, listeners. You know, for our listeners, you know, say that kind of thing, tell them about "bah, bah, bah", and so I started doing that. I'm not always very good about doing that, and you don't want to overdo it, but it's those kinds of things that have been very helpful. I think the hardest for me is when that rapport falls flat, and sometimes it does, or I'm going to be just dead honest here, sometimes the topic is really boring to me.

Brett Johnson:
Well it can't always be home runs, that's true.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It can't always be, but it's interesting to somebody else, so I try and keep it, but sometimes I'm like, "Whoa, golly."

Brett Johnson:
Yeah, because I'll even go through an episode, not yours, but a podcast episode that I typically will listen to on an ongoing basis, but sometimes I know they're going to have good stuff, and it's like, "You know what? Let's power through it because I know that even though the topic may not be good, they always give me something." You've gone to workshops and conferences and such and you kind of sit through something, and there's no way that you can't get something out of it. If you have to be here anyway, yes, somebody is going to get something out of it, or maybe it'll turn all of the sudden in the middle of it and it's like "Oh, wow! This did happen. Okay, good." You never know.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, it's persevering. But yeah, somebody does get something out of it, and I try to. But I think those are very rare. It's very rare, but I'm very cognizant as the host of I want to put on something that's interesting, and I want interesting topics for people. I want people to listen.

Brett Johnson:
Sure. Exactly, yeah. So future plans for the podcast. In your mind, maybe, you haven't told Joel yet, and this is a great forum to tell Joel, "You know, I want to do this." Just drop the bomb right now.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, here it is. Sorry, Joel.

Brett Johnson:
This is where we're going in 2020 with it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's right. I am so intrigued by the idea of using it as PD.

Brett Johnson:
That's caught my interest now, too. That you've got that feedback that what could that do? What that could be?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, so these superintendents recommended us as a form of PD, and especially in districts where they can't get to Columbus or to Cincinnati for PD, where they're further out. But I'm intrigued by it, and so right now I am so honored that they think of our podcast in that way. I feel this like shame, I'm not giving it more intentionality with the PD aspect, and so I guess I'd like to give it more focus from a PD aspect of it somehow. I'm not quite sure how to go about that yet because I haven't gotten my mind around that, but there's great potential there.

Brett Johnson:
Huge, yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
People are busy. It's really hard to get people out for anything right now. I see it within our home school districts to get people to turn out for a meeting, and I'm living it. I think you have kids around my age.

Brett Johnson:
Yeah.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I'm sorry, around my kids age. That came out wrong. So, where, yeah, you want me to come out for a meeting about, you know, I don't know, why we need a levy. Okay. Well, I have five things this night where I'm running. I just work for my kids at night. I mean, that's my, that's you know, I have a day job and a night job and (inaudible) where do you want to fit that in? People are just busy.

Brett Johnson:
Or the agenda doesn't fit anything, where the focus is around the school my kid's going to. It's all the elementary schools and he is now and she's at a school, you know, all these scenarios that, how do you get to them?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, and so I think people are just busy, but they have time in the car. They have time when they're running or whatever to listen to some of their favorites, and so hopefully, that's where we fit in. Hopefully we're one of their favorites.

Brett Johnson:
Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. Let's end with some advice for a consulting firm. Let's really keep it in that realm because that's what you're doing. As we talked about earlier, you don't advertise, you really don't promote who you are, you've built the business on the legs that you do what you say you're going to do, and referrals and such. But there's a consulting firm that's interested in using this as a marketing tool, a soft sell, as it were, or just to have great conversations with the clients, you know, to build that relationship up and use it that way. All these different pieces to why do a podcast? What are some advice and maybe some key people that need to be involved in the ground level to make it solid from the get-go?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Well key people to involved from the get-go. Straight off, they're going to need somebody like you because I didn't know what equipment to buy. I didn't know how to go about this, what was involved, and how time-intensive or anything. I just had this instinct, and I was just a podcast listener, consumer myself. I think, right out of the gate, that's kind of the starting block. I think, honestly, I'm going to kind of toot our own horn.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I'm really proud of how we've gone about this and how we go about our business because we really, we prize and value relationships above all else, and so we stay true to that. I believe in everything that we do, and if you do good, people will notice, and they'll want to follow you. That's what I would say has worked for us and that would work for others is stay true to the relationships of things and good will follow. I guess it really is who we are as a firm. We care about those things. It is what we value, and it's just never led us astray. We've stayed true to that core, and it's so deep.

Brett Johnson:
Right.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
It's true.

Brett Johnson:
Well, no, but I think it's true because I've heard other examples, too, that they wanted to create a podcast to supplement a newsletter. Okay. It didn't work because it was just a task. They heard back from their association members that, "Hey, could you do a podcast instead of the newsletter because I listen to podcasts. I'm not reading your newsletter." Well, then it became a task that they did a podcast in addition to the newsletter. Didn't work.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Do you know why?

Brett Johnson:
It should have, but they looked at it the wrong way.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
They looked at it the wrong way. I'm going to kind of sidebar a little bit. So, within communications work, there is something, it's … I don't know if the term is still relevant within, you know, how to form a website. When you look at a website, a lot of times people develop their website and they look at how do I think for my organization this should work? Well, it's geared internally toward the organization how they think the organization should work, but there's something called use cases where what are the different uses people might have for your (inaudible)? And I think that's how a lot of things … it might work for you, the organization, to promote your newsletter on there, but does that help … is that really the angle people really care about it?

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I think it's getting the angle they care about, you know, school districts are always looking, and I think that's why our topics work, is that it's from superintendents to other superintendents and other school leaders out there, and so they are seeing these cool things. Well, maybe I can do that lunch program, that really cool lunch program and replicate it. And fine, go be the hero. The great thing about education is that they have no compunction about calling each other for a great idea and saying, "Okay, what were your pitfalls? How do I make this work?" So I feel like our podcast is a conduit to making other good happen for them.

Brett Johnson:
Those that I have done so far and listen to older ones as well, too, it comes off that way, that they're not really showboating like, "Look what we're doing here. This is great stuff," it's just, "Yeah, we're doing it the best that we can. And, luckily, we got great people around us that with this project is 'I got to give kudos to her.'" I mean, over time and time again, you hear the "Kudos to her. Kudos to him." The superintendent or the main person you're really talking to is just throwing everything off of themselves. It's amazing.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, I think there's a humility to it that, I think, makes it more receptive to people too. It creates a genuineness, a realness to it.

Brett Johnson:
I think that and, again, choosing the right topics, the right people, makes that podcast work for you. You're bringing all these great ideas together. The more and more we talk about it, I'm not surprised that somebody made that comment to you that, you know, this is really good stuff, that it's PD level type of content because it has nothing to do with Allerton, nothing.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
No, it doesn't.

Brett Johnson:
Ultimately, it does, yes, it's brought to you by.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yes, exactly.

Brett Johnson:
You know, we're helping, we're "bringing these people to the table", but beyond that, let's have the conversation, let's get you connected.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
I think we've done a good job of staying true to our firm and the genuineness that we, I think, as individuals within the firm and as a team and how we work with our clients and the people we work with, so I'm proud of it, but can we do better? Oh, yeah. We can do a lot better.

Brett Johnson:
But that's good because that means you want to continue on. You have plans in your mind about how we can make this better because this is doing what we want it to do. That's good. When the time comes that you've exhausted, you'll know it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
That's right.

Brett Johnson:
You'll know when it's done. Well thank you for being a guest. I really appreciate it. I think this is good insight. I have not had an opportunity to talk to, you know, basically, a consulting firm, those that have business that's not advertising itself and how they went about using, and are using, this type of medium to do what they want to do but give themselves a little bit of a lift as well too, but it's not all about them. I think this has been a good showcase on how to get that accomplished.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Well thank you. I appreciate being on this side. This is good PD for me, personally, to be on this side.

Brett Johnson:
I'm glad you had fun.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Yeah, thank you for bringing to your beautiful space here.

Brett Johnson:
Sure, no problem. Thank you, again. I appreciate it.

Carole Dorn-Bell:
Thank you.

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Carole Dorn-Bell is my guest on this episode. She is a partner at Allerton Hill Consulting and a host of the podcast We Love Schools, along with consultancy partner Joel Gagne.

Allerton Hill Consulting does no advertising. So why a podcast? Especially when a podcast itself could be considered advertising?

Carole does a great job explaining why they thought of using a podcast. She also goes in depth on how they are implementing the podcast into their networking and support strategy. All the while not specifically supporting Allerton Hill Consulting.

This podcast is a great example for any business owner who is looking at podcasting but is afraid that it could come off, as she calls it, “too schmaltzy,” too much of an advertisement.

It doesn’t have to be. The We Love Schools podcast is really good example of that.

We Love Schools Podcast – Fresh Foods That Students Actually Eat

We Love Schools Podcast – The Big Blue Bus Of Washington Court House

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Radio, Podcasting and Sponsorships

Podcasting, Radio, And Sponsors (transcribed by Sonix)

Brett Johnson: From Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, located in downtown Columbus, Ohio, this is Note to Future Me. I’m Brett Johnson, owner of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. Note to Future Me is dedicated to interviewing businesses, and organizations who have implemented podcasting into their marketing strategy, but, in this episode, I’m taking a sidestep.

Brett Johnson: I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast, Whiskey Business, and former longtime morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast, Lawyer Talk, and owner, and partner at the law firm of Yavitch & Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Brett Johnson: Okay, now you’re thinking what do we three have in common? Radio, and podcasting. Dino, of course, with his years on air, and his podcast; Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast, and has been a radio advertiser, and has been a part of a morning radio call-in show on 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. I’m a 35-year-plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

Brett Johnson: I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time, and I have two great guests to talk about it – how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light about podcasting. We three have different viewpoints, coming from three different perspectives, and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus. I think you’re gonna enjoy this insider’s view. As always, thanks for taking notes with me.

Brett Johnson: As you’ve heard in my past episodes, I’ve gone the theme of businesses, and podcasting. This episode, I wanna kinda take a sidebar. With my background in radio, as you well know, as a listener of my podcast, I wanna occasionally address the radio, and podcasting theme – its weaknesses; its strengths; its existence at all, if nothing else.

Brett Johnson: I thought this episode would be great to do because I’ve got two radio experts; generals.

Dino Tripodis: You do?

Brett Johnson: I do [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I was like, “Okay, we’re here. When are the other guys coming?”

Brett Johnson: We’ve got Dino Tripodis, who is, first off, the host of Whiskey Business podcast – I’m gonna give the podcast a vote of confidence, first – as well as a former morning show co-host for a local radio station in Columbus, Ohio, WSNY Sunny 95; as well as Steve Palmer, who is the owner of law firm Yavitch & Palmer, and … You kinda go, “Attorney? What’s the deal?” Well, anyway, he is the host of the Lawyer Talk: Off the Record podcast, as well as a longtime radio advertiser on a local station in Columbus. The Blitz, 99.7 FM.

Brett Johnson: I think we all three can bring three different perspectives to radio, and podcasting that I want to explore. I have my opinion. I know Dino has his. I know Steve has his.

Steve Palmer: Uh-huh.

Brett Johnson: I think it should be fun. Let’s, though, go this route, first. Give a little bit about your background, Dino, in regards to what you’ve done with your life up until this point, as well as how the Whiskey Business podcast came about.

Dino Tripodis: What have I done with my life? That’s a good question. You know what? I think my mother asked me that same question just a week ago. “What have you done with your life?” 24 years, that’s 1995 … It was the only radio job I had ever had.

Dino Tripodis: I came into it as a comedian doing stand-up. I was a guest on their show as a comedian, and then … I’ll skip a lot of the minutia, but there was an opening to work there as a co-host with another gentleman who, at the time, was hosting the show – Bob Simpson. I reluctantly took the job, thinking this is gonna be one of those ‘It’s nice when he visits. It’s not gonna be so nice when he’s there all the time’ situations. That show was good, but didn’t work.

Dino Tripodis: The following year, they let Mr. Simpson go, and I thought they were gonna let myself, and Stacy McKay go, as well, at the end of the year, because that happened in October. Come January, they sat us down and said, “We’d like you to be the new morning show.” Once again I thought, “Okay, they’ll come to their senses, and realize they made a horrible mistake.” 24 years later, I was still there, but I did leave in June of 2018 [cross talk] 24 great years. Great station. Just a great run.

Brett Johnson: The Whiskey Business podcast came about through that time period, then, too, right?

Dino Tripodis: Well, Sunny 95, or Saga Communications, Columbus Radio Group, whatever you wanna call them, started to see that podcasting was becoming a thing, and digital media was becoming a thing, as well. They started to hop on it, and wanted to take advantage of the opportunities that were in there, in respects to sales, and making money.

Dino Tripodis: They approached Stacy, first – she does a podcast called Momcast, which is very popular, and very good – and they asked me if I wanted to do a podcast. At first, I said, “Ehhh, I don’t know.” I thought, okay, if I did one, what would it be? What do I like? What do I know? We came up with Whiskey Business, which I did not want it to be a podcast about whiskey, so much as it … That’s our tagline, “Not so much a podcast about whiskey as it is one with whiskey.”.

Dino Tripodis: The only running theme in our podcast is we share a different bottle of whiskey every week, with a different guest. We don’t claim to be experts in whiskey. There are far more knowledgeable men, and women out there who know their whiskey than I do, but we do learn a little bit about the bottle. Then, what’s really fun is the conversations that we have. Our guests run from A to Z, as far as topics. We’ve had lawyers on the show. We’ve had a couple of attorneys.

Steve Palmer: All right.

Dino Tripodis: Three of ’em … I said two. Three. I think you probably know ’em all.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I think I do. We talked a little bit off the air about that before we were recording, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they’ve all had … One of ’em has a podcast, as well. Alex Hastie.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Alex is a friend of mine, and he’s been on our podcast.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, Ohio v. the World.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Great podcast, actually [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: He’s been on ours three times. Yeah, small world, smaller city, I always like to say.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. Correct.

Steve Palmer: Columbus is one of those cities where, if you just start poking around, sooner or later, you’re gonna find people that know people that know people that know you, and the chains get smaller, and smaller.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, there’s like three degrees of separation, as opposed to the classic six [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Exactly.

Brett Johnson: Steve, let’s talk a little bit about how you got into doing the podcast, but also your history with advertising with The Blitz, and how it all kinda transitioned into where you are today.

Steve Palmer: I’m really just a criminal defense lawyer [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, “just” a criminal defense lawyer?

Steve Palmer: What’s interesting is in the back that you were talking about Blazer, and I started going on The Blitz with Blazer and Mo, years ago. This is about 2006 or ’07. My partner, who’s now deceased, Eric Yavitch, he was cruising home one day, or cruising into the office, one day, and there was … Actually in, because it was morning.

Steve Palmer: Here’s Mo griping about getting a speeding ticket in the city of Dublin. It was classic Mo shtick, where he was, “Black man in Dublin. Here I go. Now, they’re gonna get me. What I need is a good Jewish lawyer. I gotta get …” Yavitch, who was my partner at the time, calls him, and says, “I’ll represent you for free.”.

Steve Palmer: That spawned a couple phone calls. Next thing I know, we’re going into the station to talk about representing Mo in a speeding ticket, and we had a charity going on. We were gonna sell some raffle tickets for a charity. We walked in, and I remember … I think it was Blazer came up, and said, “You guys wanna do maybe a little phone-in question-and-answer legal advice?” I said, “Well, sure. Why not?”

Brett Johnson: Why not?

Steve Palmer: Next thing I know, here I am a decade later … I’ve been doing that same phone-in show weekly, now, for almost 10 years now. It went off the air while The Blitz took their hiatus. The morning show for-

Brett Johnson: The ‘old Coke/new Coke’ experiment, right?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, they changed brands a couple times, and then came back. Ultimately, after I bounced around to QFM, and then … I think I even … Yeah, I went over to CD101 for a while. That was a failure. Then I ended up back at The Blitz, and here we are.

Steve Palmer: Along those lines, what I thought …Here’s what I started doing about radio advertising. I never cared about it, to be perfectly blunt. I just … It didn’t make any sense to me. I never understood it. I never thought I would hire a lawyer who’s got a commercial on the radio. What happened is when I started doing that phone-in legal advice, people started calling me; “Hey, you’re the guy on a radio.”.

Dino Tripodis: Well, it becomes … You take it a step further, where you actually become now just … You’re more than just a radio commercial, you’ve, whether you realize it or not, become a personality.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet.

Dino Tripodis: That’s far more identifiable than just a spot on the radio.

Steve Palmer: Yep, and you guys know that from your … I didn’t even … No experience with radio or doing anything … In fact, I used to be scared to death to walk in there-

Brett Johnson: Me either.

Steve Palmer: It was probably the same thing, like when you just [inaudible] “Hey, you wanna be on our show?” It was like, “Sure. How does this work?” Now, I get to the point where, every few weeks, I’ll be checking out at Kroger, or I had one time at Harbor Freight, and somebody says, “Do I know you?” Here I am, wearing a ball cap backwards. I’ve been working in my yard; I’m sweaty; I’m whatever, and I’m like, “I don’t think so. I don’t …” and she, “Are you on the radio?” I was like, ” Well, yeah, yeah, I happen …” “You’re that lawyer on the radio!”

Steve Palmer: That’s where the advertising component shakes hands with me being on, but whether … I always looked at the advertising as an opportunity for me to be on the air, and share my personality – who I am, how I do things. That is the best advertising I’ve got, as far as radio goes.

Dino Tripodis: There’s other attorneys who have radio spots, but don’t you think, because you do that phone-in, and that segment, that it elevates you a little bit?

Steve Palmer: Yeah-.

Dino Tripodis: Because that’s how I think it transfers, or translates into the mind of the consumer. “Well, yeah, I heard a lawyer spot for that guy, but this guy actually has a show.”

Steve Palmer: Yeah. “He’s on the radio.” I think it sort of reinforces the brand. The radio spots are usually my voice, so it reinforces my voice, and it works only because I’ve got both [cross talk] and it works well.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: With all due respect, you have a good voice. Over the 24 years that I’ve did radio, there’ll be clients that would wanna voice their own spots, and I’m like, “Okay … That’s not really a good idea.”

Brett Johnson: Right. Exactly.

Steve Palmer: Right, right, right …

Dino Tripodis: But you, you have a good voice.

Steve Palmer: Well, thank you, yeah …

Brett Johnson: With your gig on the air, you’re the first one that’ll defer: “I’ll get you in contact with somebody. I don’t know the answer to that,” or, “I’ll take a good stab here, but you need to call …” That is cred, beyond belief.

Steve Palmer: I learned this a long time ago is that … I learned at the dinner table, where, if you don’t know, you say you don’t know, and you become intelligent, or smart, when you realize you don’t know anything. What I do is really all about problem-solving, and I look at my job that way.

Steve Palmer: If somebody calls in, I don’t act like a know-it-all if I don’t know it. I just say, “Listen, here’s what I think is going on; let’s put you in touch with the right person. You need a roof, we’ll get you a roofer; you need some plumbing, we’ll get you a plumber; you need a lawyer that does probate, we’ll get that person.”

Steve Palmer: I think that does … If there’s young lawyers listening, you should follow this advice: understand what you don’t know, and it’s okay not to know. You don’t you don’t need to know everything. That’s the trick, and then, focus on solving the problem, however that is.

Brett Johnson: Let’s talk about how you got started with podcast, then, which … I love this story.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, we would come … I said for years … Remember when reality TV hit? This is back in, what, the mid-late ’90s. All the sudden, all these reality TV shows … Eric Yavitch, and I were sitting in our office, and we said, “We oughta have a reality TV show,” because we get back from court, and we’re just spent. It’s that slap-happy time of the day, when you start just doing funny stuff. I thought, “Man, a reality show would love this.”.

Steve Palmer: Then, when I started doing the radio show, I thought, “Man, I’d love to have my own radio show,” and I said, sort of rhetorically, “Man, if I could just have … If I could just make a living doing radio, I would do that.” Jeff Linn, who now has been with me for a long time, is a of the next generation. He listens to Rogan, and all these podcasts. I said, “Podcast? What the hell is that?” I do the radio show …

Dino Tripodis: It’s the future …

Steve Palmer: It’s the future.

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: He said we oughta do a podcast, so I thought, “Well, all right. One of these days, we’ll do one.” Well, Brett, you’re sitting outside the studio one time after … On a Wednesday-

Brett Johnson: Like a vulture [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: He’s a vulture. He’s got of stack of these Circle-something cards. We started talking about podcasts, and I said, “Yeah, that’s funny, because I’ve been … Jeff Linn, my guy, we’ve been talking about doing this now for months …” That’s the thing is that I didn’t have the, I guess … I didn’t have the knowledge to actually push it over the goal line. I could talk about it; I could do it, but I was somewhere on the 50-yard line. The thought of actually figuring out how to record something [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Oh, I’m with you there. If not for an excellent producer, yeah, there’d be no Whiskey Business.

Steve Palmer: It’s a confusing, complicated mess, and then, getting it to podcast land? I didn’t even know what that was. Now, I’ve heard people trying to write apps for Apple, and I’m like, “That doesn’t … That’s impossible. You can’t do that.” It was your expertise, Brett, that sort of gave us that push to get it actually started, and going.

Brett Johnson: All right. Then, Dino was asking about “Okay, studio looks great, down here. How’d this start up?” Talk about the development of the 511 Studios, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, what is this little-

Steve Palmer: Yeah, this little oasis-

Dino Tripodis: -niche of audio nirvana doing down here in this legal building?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you walked into my law office, and then, I’d bring you down to this little- this studio. We were doing the podcast at a conference table in my office upstairs. I bought the building a couple years ago from my mentor, a guy named Bill Meeks, who’s passed away, but …

Steve Palmer: As we did this podcast, I bought a microphone. I thought, “All right, I’ve spent what I need to spend.” I bought a microphone. I got this … Maybe I’ll do it on my phone, and record digitally. Then, I bought a better digital recorder. Then, I bought another microphone, and then I bought another microphone-.

Dino Tripodis: It’s crack.

Steve Palmer: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It’s audio crack.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and all the time, he’s asking me, “What do you think about this?” It’s like, “Yeah, if you wanna go that direction, that’s really good stuff. If you wanna do that, that’s okay. You’ll love …” We get kicking around, and he wants to look at these AVs. I said, “I got one. I’ll bring it down. You can listen to A.B. … Do the A.B. test …” He plugs this bad boy in; he goes, “I’m sold” [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: At the radio, you go to … There’s a certain sound, and you guys know this better than I, but I had no idea that there was a sound associated, and by sound, I mean a mix, or whatever the hell it is, associated with on-air radio/broadcast radio.

Steve Palmer: I got addicted to that, and headphones over at the studio, over at 99.7, and I just … Anything short of that, in my own podcast, seemed inadequate.

Brett Johnson: Uh-huh. I guess so.

Steve Palmer: Brett comes down … He’s over, and Brett … We come down here in the basement, in this room. and there’s chairs stacked … Literally, chairs [cross talk] I bought the building furnished. I needed a place to store all the crap, so there’s chairs stacked to the ceiling, and we’re … I said, “Yeah, I’m thinking about maybe building a studio down here.”

Steve Palmer: One thing led to another. I put this … I put paneling up. I got the right kind of sound stuff. I started building acoustical panels. We bought monitors; bought a mixing board. I didn’t like that, so I bought another one. I got these amps, so I needed pre-amps to run- or these mics. I needed pre-amps to run the mics. Then, we thought, “Well, we might as well have the ability to put it on TV.”

Dino Tripodis: Sure! Why not? Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Now, we can do streaming. We’ve got five cameras mounted that are around our little roundtable here that everybody can be on a camera at all times; we can mix the video for people …

Dino Tripodis: We just started doing YouTube videos, as well. Not as sophisticated as these five mounted cameras; we have two GoPro cameras that are filming myself, and my guest. Then, I wanted to do a little shout out, if I can, please, to my Producer, Greg Hansberry, who I’d be lost without, and also the producer of our YouTube videos, Director John Whitney, who is a filmmaker-collaborator, and just wanted to join in on the fun. He edits down the YouTube videos, as well.

Dino Tripodis: We went from the studio at Sunny, when we had the podcast over there, and now we go … We’re at my house, and we have some of that equipment, that early equipment, that seems to suffice for us, right now. But this … This … I don’t … There’s also something to be said, and like I said, it comes down to a great producer. They mix it really well, and do a great job with it.

Dino Tripodis: There’s something about the ambiance of doing it from my home. It’s in my bar, and there’s just something very comfortable about the atmosphere of it. I think I think we would lose something now, if we left that particular place, now. Could I make it more sound-pleasing? Probably. I could probably do some things. We did one in the basement one time, too, which, Hansberry immediately said, “Ah, the acoustics down here are even better. We should do it down here all the time.” I’m like, “Whatever. I don’t know …” but, yeah-

Steve Palmer: I just- I’m the talent, right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I don’t know. Talk to him … Plus, as far as how it sounds, you probably have the benefit of a better ear … Brett, you’re probably hearing-deficient, on some level, in one of these ears, after all your years of radio.

Brett Johnson: A little bit; a little bit [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, I know I am for sure.

Steve Palmer: Really?

Dino Tripodis: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Steve Palmer: Wow, okay.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, sometimes, it’s conveniently so [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: You said what? Huh?

Dino Tripodis: Sometimes, it’s actual. Yeah, this is great. This is great.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, it’s a neat place, and you know what happens down here; it’s become a think tank for us. It’s become a place where not only do we record our show, but we … I talk about stuff down here, whether it’s being recorded or not. We solve problems down here. This is my little escape in the middle of the day to come down, and either record a show, hang out, or do whatever … Stuff like we’re doing right now. I love it down here. I don’t regret any of it. The only thing I can think is how can I make it better?

Brett Johnson: Right. Right.

Steve Palmer: I’m always thinking about that.

Brett Johnson: Right [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Talk to the two radio guys. We have ways [cross talk].

Brett Johnson: Exactly. There you go.

Steve Palmer: It sounds like I need your production team. I got all this fancy equipment; I don’t know how to use it.

Dino Tripodis: You got a lotta fancy equipment.

Brett Johnson: Right. What kind of support did you get – we talked a little bit before we recorded – from the radio station group. I know they approached you; they wanted you to do one. From that day forward, “Yep, I’m cool; I’m gonna do this …” What kinda support did you get from them? I mean, frustrations, and good, and bad. Talk about that.

Dino Tripodis: First of all, they gave me carte blanche, as far as content. There wasn’t any what I like to call ‘Sunny restrictions.’

Brett Johnson: Sure, yeah, right … You weren’t on air with it.

Dino Tripodis: I was not air. Yes, this is on the internet. We didn’t have to worry so much about content, language, et cetera, et cetera. Supportive in that they ran spots for the podcast on a regular basis, and, once again, part of that was, when we had sponsors, they kinda had to.

Dino Tripodis: I think where they dropped the ball was in sales. I don’t know … If there are salespeople in radio that might be listening to this, you need to embrace the future, which is digital media, and find a way to sell it. If it seems like it’s a small-potatoes package to sell to one person for X amount, it’s not.

Dino Tripodis: I’m sorry if it’s not Giant Eagle, or Kroger, or one of the big car dealerships, where you’re gonna make a lot of money, but you need to wrap your head around the fact that it’s not going anywhere. In fact, it’s growing as we speak. By not trying to sell it, you’re missing out on dollars. You are, personally; so is your radio station.

Dino Tripodis: There’s a lot of money to be made in digital media from an advertising perspective, and I think that’s where they … I won’t say they didn’t support it, but I don’t think they went at it as aggressively as they could have. I think the salespeople could not wrap their heads around this small little thing, where you just talk about whatever you want, and that’s it. It goes out on the internet, and it’s not on the radio. It’s not actually on the radio.

Steve Palmer: You’re not a big boy. You just got your little basement thing, but … Here, I think your words of wisdom are really, really true. That is they better jump on board, or somebody like me will, or somebody with a studio here will do it. Because having spent a lot of dollars on radio advertising, I see it both ways.

Steve Palmer: I can see that, all right, if you’re the big boy … I don’t know what the big boys would spend. I don’t know what a big car dealership would spend on the radio, as far as advertising, but it’s a monthly fee, I suspect, and it’s probably high. Then, you get to a point where what is the return on that?

Steve Palmer: If you could get the same return on a popular podcast, for half the money, eventually, the big boys are gonna start bailing. They’re gonna go over to the podcast land. I sort of see it like maybe, not only the radio advertiser, or the salespeople, but maybe even the radio stations, themselves, better start thinking how to … They should start cashing in on some of those dollars.

Dino Tripodis: I get it, too. It’s the blinders mentality. You don’t know how … You can; you can find out how many people are listening to your podcast, but, the fact that there are X amount of radio stations in Columbus, Ohio, compared to the literally thousands of podcasts, hundreds of thousands of podcasts that are out there, and available to consume …

Dino Tripodis: I can see where an advertiser might go, “Well, how are we gonna cut through … There’s 500,000 podcasts out there.” Yeah, well, there are, but really, there’s really only 200,000 of those who are actually active on a regular basis, and then, only 50 percent of those are actually good. The number starts to get down to a smaller amount.

Dino Tripodis: If you take that model, and you break it down to what’s available, here in Columbus, as far as a local advertiser, and the fact, if you can convince ’em it’s just not going out to Columbus, it’s going out everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: Sure, you might have listeners in Columbus that are dedicated listeners that will … Good, but your name, your brand, is going everywhere.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you bet, and what does that correspond with? Internet sales, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: It’s like the brick-and-mortar store is not so important anymore. Even car dealers. I was shopping for cars recently, and I realized quickly I wasn’t looking at a dealership in central Ohio at all. It was somewhere outta state. They were marketing all over, because … It didn’t seem weird to me to go travel somewhere to buy a car, and that’s not even mail order. If I got a mail-order product, or any product I can ship, a podcast is limitless, as far as who you can reach. It really is limitless, if you get a good one.

Steve Palmer: I’m curious. You were a professional deejay, and then you make a shift to podcast. Did you catch any flack in the business, that way? Do people think, “All right, now you’re just a podcaster; you’re not a professional …” How many people are making that transition?

Dino Tripodis: I don’t know. As far as what people think – is podcasting some sort of-

Steve Palmer: It’s a lesser-

Dino Tripodis: -lesser bastard child [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Retirement home for-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, where you go-

Brett Johnson: -for on-air personalities …

Dino Tripodis: “Oh, when you’re done with radio, you go into a podcasting.”.

Brett Johnson: Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: There’s some truth to that, because, as I mentioned before, it seems like everybody’s got a podcast.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: I make a joke that the sixth-grader that lives down the street from me has a podcast about boy bands, and bracelets, and has more listeners than I do. I mean, it seems like everybody’s got a podcast. By the same token, no, I don’t think … I haven’t gotten any flack about it being lesser than, mainly because I think I was doing it while I was on the air.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Sure.

Dino Tripodis: When I first started, the first solid year and a half, they were married hand-in-hand. It was my choice to take the podcast with me, when I left. That was one of the arrangements that I made, for lack of a better word, that I wanted to take the podcast, and all the proprietary rights, and all the intellectual property that’s associated with Whiskey Business with me, because I wanted to possibly take it a step further. Since they weren’t really doing anything with it, sales-wise, it seemed like, “Eh, let him have it.”

Brett Johnson: Right. Yep.

Steve Palmer: I think eventually that … Well, I heard this, Brett, that Howard Stern was sort of jesting a little bit about Rogan’s podcast, like, “Aw, he’s just … He’s a podcaster.”

Brett Johnson: Really?

Steve Palmer: Howard Stern’s been the radio guru forever. He’s made tons of money doing it. Then, he shifted to satellite radio, or digital, whatever that’s called now. Then, he was he was sort of poking at Rogan, like, “Aw, what’s he do? He’s not making any money. He’s not doing anything.” It’s like, but he is, right? [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: You bet he is.

Steve Palmer: Like the hare and the tortoise; you better watch out.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, yeah, Rogan’s doing very well. There’s some good podcasts out there-

Brett Johnson: Guess who’s in the press right now? Rogan is. Stern ain’t.

Steve Palmer: No, that’s exactly-

Brett Johnson: Stern gets talked about very, very little anymore.

Steve Palmer: He doesn’t care. He’s made his money [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Oh, yeah. He’s not in that stage of the game.

Steve Palmer: What’s happening is that you’ve got, like, Ben Shapiro. He’s making tons of money on his little podcast; you’ve got Rogan making lots of money. There’s dozens of guys that are taking this format, and making it work financially. I think sooner or later, the sponsorship money will, or the advertising money will have to follow.

Brett Johnson: Coming from my background, just recently exiting a local radio station group after … Well, I’ve been in radio for over 35 years, but 20 years there, in sales, but I also did some on-air promotions, and such. I’ve been on both sides of the building, let’s put it that way …

Brett Johnson: Leaving there, I can tell you, at least from an industry standpoint, it has to come from top down. If owners don’t get it, the rest of the building won’t get it either. I know a lot of it’s coming from the programming, and it sounds as though, in your situation, Dino, it was welcomed. That’s great, but a lot of program directors take a look at this as, “If they’re listening to a podcast, they’re not listening to my radio station.” Bottom line.

Brett Johnson: It’s an economy of time; that you only have X amount of hours per day, so if you’re gonna spend it with a podcast, I don’t get you as a PPM, as a portable-people-meter person, and you’re not a listener-

Dino Tripodis: God, don’t get me started on PPM.

Brett Johnson: Right. They’re not seeing it as an extension, a brand extension for the radio station. That’s exactly what I walked out of; exactly what I walked out of, because I was the only one with the instigating, and pushing forward any podcasting there. I leave, and it’s dying on the vine. It’s amazing, and they’re not grabbing a hold of this, and understanding what’s going on with it. That’s partly why I left.

Steve Palmer: It’s almost like Big Tobacco saying, “We’re not gonna vape.”

Brett Johnson: I get calls from businesses who wanna podcast, and I hook up studios. I don’t use radio stations. Why would you not think a business would call the radio station? They have the equipment.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it’s all right there.

Brett Johnson: It’s all right there, but they don’t get the calls, Dino. They don’t get the calls. I get the calls.

Dino Tripodis: Good.

Brett Johnson: It doesn’t make any sense. If you think you’re gonna make a video, you call TV, right?

Dino Tripodis: Yeah..

Brett Johnson: They got the equipment. Radio may have missed the boat. They may have missed the boat.

Dino Tripodis: They’re missing the boat. I think there’s still time for them to get another boat, and swim out to that boat-

Brett Johnson: [inaudible] yeah.

Dino Tripodis: -and get on it, but they are missing the boat, as we speak. Have they missed it completely? I don’t know, because what I … I do see some stations across the country that do embrace it [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: Yes, they are. You’re right.

Dino Tripodis: There are some that are embracing the podcasts, and encouraging their personalities, their morning-show personalities, their afternoon, to do them, in addition to whatever they’re doing on the show, to add more layers to who they are, and what they’re all about. I think that’s great.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. In your situation, Steve, as well, I think stations are missing the boat that they’re not training their sales reps to take a look at, “Okay, who on your list of advertisers could be prime for a podcast, outside of what they do?” Just exactly what you do with yours.

Steve Palmer: Sure, yeah.

Brett Johnson: Exactly what you do. That’s where a sales rep can make money.

Steve Palmer: You would think a radio station could bring a lot of value, and force to that equation, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: It’s like, “We’re gonna help you get your podcast … Come to our studio. Just come to this one that’s empty over here. We’ve got the voice processors. It’ll be everything … You don’t have to worry … You can do … ” What held me back, they can supply for people, which is I had trouble getting my head around actually making it happen with the equipment. How do I record? How do I get it up to a podcast? How do I do all these things?

Steve Palmer: In practicality, once you’ve figure it out, it’s doable, but it’s the kind of hurdle that prevents people from doing it. Somebody like you, now, is gonna do it, and help people do it. Radio stations could do that, and then use their station to help you promote it. I think that could generate dollars for a radio station, but what do I know?

Dino Tripodis: How different do you think it is … Let me ask you this. There are people that the radio station will sell time for these shows, where clients come in, and do a half-hour show; basically, they’re just pushing their product.

Brett Johnson: Long-form programming, basically.

Dino Tripodis: They’re usually on a Sunday morning, or a Sunday afternoon. How is that any different?

Brett Johnson: It’s not, other than they’re on 8:00 on Sunday morning, and, at 8:29, the show is gone forever [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -it’s done, and this one … With the podcast, you’re doing it, and then-.

Brett Johnson: Even if it’s repurposing that long-form program, that’s okay, but in real-time radio, it’s gone forever. It’s out in the ether space.

Steve Palmer: That’s a good point … I had to face this in another media, which is the internet. I’m almost 50, now; 48. I’ll be 49 in May-

Dino Tripodis: I got psychological issues I wanna [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: -but I built my law practice the old-fashioned way. I was over … I would go to happy hours, or I would go meet people on a golf course, or doing stuff like this, or just shaking hands, or actually … Frankly, just being good at what we did, at that time, was a huge … That’s what drove business into my doors.

Steve Palmer: Then, there came a time after 2008, particularly, when the market sorta crashed, that everybody in their mother was gonna be a criminal-defense lawyer. What they were good at was internet marketing; they could go grab DUI cases; they could grab the misdemeanor stuff, or even some bigger felony stuff, and get paid some money. People out there didn’t know any better. They would just click, and say, “Oh, this is a good website. I’ll go talk to this guy, and if he or she …” This gal, they got this right sales pitch, they’ll hire ’em. That became a whole different competitive market for me.

Brett Johnson: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I either get along, or go along. You gotta jump on, and start doing it. We had to build a web page; we had to start doing some search-engine stuff just to keep up. It sounds like radio is sort of in that same mode, where the old, and the new are sort of spreading apart here, faster than maybe is healthy.

Steve Palmer: I think, ultimately, that if the target audience, or the target dollars, are people who have them to spend on advertising … Just look at the generation coming up behind us, guys. They’re doing everything online; they’re doing everything digitally; they’re doing everything … They don’t wanna waste time finding a radio show that’s on Sunday morning. They’re gonna just google it, and if it doesn’t show up, it’s gone. Like you said, it’s done. It’s interesting [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: I think there’s still value in terrestrial radio, as far as advertising [cross talk] I’ve heard that death bell so many times, over the last 24 years, and it’s just not true. Terrestrial radio has its place in this communication world, but you’ve got to be aware of what’s coming, and … Not what’s coming, what’s here.

Brett Johnson: I think this was an opportunity … I agree, it’s not gone yet. I get sarcastic with it, but I think Radio has, and had such an opportunity to be in front of the curve for once, with podcasts, and embrace it.

Brett Johnson: Just recently, there was a large conference of podcasters, called Podcast Movement, and it’s been going on … It’s grown by thousands every year, and it’s only about four years old. This year, they invited radio to be a track of, as well, too. Radio was on one side; podcasters on another; the two did not mix. They did not mix, and you heard comments, after the conference that radio people did not wanna talk to podcast people. They had different meet-ups and there was … Again, it’s that red-headed stepchild attitude, overall [cross talk] Like what you said, though, there are some groups that get it, and are moving forward with it, but it’s still that stigma that it’s-.

Dino Tripodis: It’s too bad, because I gotta be honest with you, when I started podcasting, while I was still at the radio station, it actually made me a better broadcaster.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Because, with podcasting, you don’t have the restrictions of time. You can talk at length. You’re not worried about getting to the next stop set of commercials, or the latest Maroon 5 song, whatever the case may be-.

Steve Palmer: Five songs an hour [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, whatever was going on, It made me, when I started doing the podcast when I’m still at station, made me a better interviewer, and consequently, a better broadcaster; also made me think out of the box a little bit more. Yeah, the two definitely … If you’re in radio, and you’re podcasting, you should definitely marry those two together, and become a force, because it only benefits you in the long run.

Brett Johnson: You’ve done the same thing with Lawyer Talk. You’ve had strategy … Even if it’s not really called a strategy meeting, you guys are planning out episodes way in advance … Where do you wanna go? Let’s add an extra one on Friday. Let’s do this. Let’s focus on this … All back toward branding Yavitch & Palmer, bottom line.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. You know what I found? Here’s what’s fascinating to me. Here’s how it works for me. Somebody calls me, I say, “How’d you find me to help you with your drunk-driving case, or your federal drug case, or whatever crime it is?” More, and more, and more, I was hearing, “Well, you know, I heard you on the radio, and I just always thought you’re very honest. You just tell people like it is …”

Dino Tripodis: You cut through.

Steve Palmer: “You just cut through all [cross talk] I looked you up on the internet, and then so-and-so, my buddy, recommended you …” or some other referral source. All of that almost always originated at that radio show. It gave me an opportunity to share who I am, and give people a glimpse of what the experience would be. Not that I’m great, but just everybody’s individual, and you got to see that, as opposed to some web page, or some video, or something that is not so free-flowing.

Steve Palmer: Now, I just thought, I got a podcast. I can do this anytime I want. I can go, “Look, a big issue, there’s a new drunk-driving law. Let’s just go talk about it.” People can hear us talking about it, and if that generates business for me, great; if it doesn’t, great; but, I can do that without, like you said, without restriction. I don’t have to-

Dino Tripodis: I think the other thing you have going for you is something that I always stress to people who are thinking about starting to do podcasts. You have consistency, correct?

Steve Palmer: Yes.

Dino Tripodis: You’re consistent. You put out a product on a regular basis … When I mentioned those 500,000 podcasts that are out there, and only … How many of them are actually active, and regular, and consistent? Not that many, in the big picture. I think consistency is a key to the success of it all, too. You’ve gotta keep putting something out there.

Dino Tripodis: We’ve had more than 75 podcasts, because we’re on our 75th bottle of whiskey.

Steve Palmer: At some point, you’re gonna run out of [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: No, no, no … Are you kidding me? No, Whiskey Business will fall by the wayside before I ever get to every whiskey that is out there.

Steve Palmer: It is a good goal, though.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, it’s a good goal. It’s a good goal. We’ve had a lot of two-parters, and we’ve had what we call Whiskey Shots, when you talk about the consistency. If we can’t get a whole podcast out on any given week, we do something called Whiskey Shots, which are just short little tidbits that are fun to kind of just keep the flow going.

Dino Tripodis: Trust me. We’d finished up our holiday show holiday, a holiday two-parter, in the middle of December, and let that two-parter run through the end of the year. I’m going crazy, because I’ve not done a podcast in … It woulda been three weeks. I’m jonesing to get back on the mic, and do a podcast, cause I feel we’ve been down too long. You know what I mean?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and you do feel like … If you’re not doing something, somebody else is. It’s getting stale, or something else. It’s like a vacuum, man. Something’s filling it up. What surprised me is that it is not easy. You’ve gotta constantly, or I have to, anyway, constantly contemplate what is next; what is going to be the next topic? What’s another thing we can talk about? Because, as much as when I first sat down with Brett, and thought, “I could do a podcast. I could do one every day, if I wanted to.” All right, well, that … You can do your first little run. That’s about two weeks [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: A lot of people forget.

Brett Johnson: That’s exactly how … The end point is about three or four episodes; two weeks.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: It’s done, and they kinda go-

Dino Tripodis: “Whaddya do? You’re in radio, where you talk for like two-three minutes, and then you … That’s all you have to do? Only work like four hours a day?” Like, “Yeah, no …”

Brett Johnson: Right, yeah. Exactly.

Dino Tripodis: I do that. I do talk for two, and three minutes at a time, for four hours a day-

Brett Johnson: But my butt’s here at 4:00 in the morning, prepping for this show-

Dino Tripodis: Yeah, 4:00 in the morning, and I’ve been doing it consistently, and well, for 24 years. You’re right, it’s not easy.

Steve Palmer: It’s not easy, and I-

Dino Tripodis: It’s not easy.

Steve Palmer: I have more respect for you guys now than ever, and as I go in every Wednesday, still, and look at Loper, and Randy, and everybody else on that show – what they do … He’s great at it. They’re great at it, but it is not without hard work. They put in their time, and they’ve got their clipboards, and they’ve got … They actually ponder what is gonna happen next. As much as they make it sound like it’s just all easy, and free-flowing, it is not. A lot of work, and effort goes into that from both the right side of the brain, and the left side of the brain. [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Sure. A lot of hard work goes into making something sound, and look easy. People forget that.

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Brett Johnson: Right, exactly. What’s your answer to radio, Dino? You get a radio exec saying, “Okay, we wanna make this podcast thing work.” From your perspective – you’ve been on the air for over 24- 20 years-

Dino Tripodis: How do they wanna make it work it? They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Yeah-

Dino Tripodis: They wanna sell it?

Brett Johnson: Because it always comes down to the dollar. It always does. You know, a radio station group … Whether it’s a standalone station, or a group, they will not do it unless there’s a bottom line to it. How do they do it, from your perspective?

Dino Tripodis: If it goes down to the sales department, you have got to sit down with the salespeople, and drill it in their head somehow that this is a viable product that needs to be sold, just like anything else you sell. I think where some of the salespeople probably …

Dino Tripodis: This is just my opinion, and just my perspective on how it looked like. It looked like, “Oh, I can only sell this for this,” as opposed to spending my time, and selling something bigger for this. They can’t escape what they should do … What they should do, when they’re going after the bigger clients is to also include this podcasting thing with it.

Dino Tripodis: If you wanna to go after your bigger clients, and say that’s where you’re gonna make your nut, as a salary, as a salesperson. Fine. Take this, and be proud of this other little extra thing that we have, in addition to what we’re selling you, to add to the package. Make it an add-on, and explain to them, this is also … “It’s great. I love the fact that you’re advertising on our radio station, but this is actually up and coming, as well, too. Why don’t you be the first to get on this?” Sell it-

Brett Johnson: Right.

Dino Tripodis: You’re not selling them a bill of goods. It’s legit, but you have to believe in what you’re selling. You have to believe in what you’re doing, in order to persuade people.

Brett Johnson: I think that we have a generation of sales reps who have not been … You’ve been in radio long enough to know, and I’ve been in it long enough to know, and you have actually enough, too, that host-read commercials are extremely effective.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: That’s what podcasting is kicking butt with. That piece is gone now, because radio has changed itself so much that … Like you said, play your music, three minutes in, get out. Don’t say any more than you have to. There’s no personality to it. I think reps don’t understand that you can sell the product.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Brett Johnson: You can sell the product, and they’re not allowing you to do that.

Steve Palmer: Well, you’ve hit on it, when you said believe in what you’re selling.

Dino Tripodis: Right.

Steve Palmer: You get a podcast host like you … I hear people do it … You hear different people sell … Like a podcast, I’ve heard podcasts say, “Oh, try this toothbrush. Let me tell you about this toothbrush.” Then, they’re gonna spend whatever time they are talking about it, not in a “20 doctors recommend this, this, and this.” This is an organic, me talking about your product, or better yet, come in, and talk about it with me, and give me the highlights, and let us really go.

Steve Palmer: I think you’re right. If you turn that into a value-added service on the radio, or a salesperson come to a guy like me, and say, “Hey, look, Randy and Loper have a podcast, too.” It’s sort of akin to the 15-second spot at midnight. They’re gonna sell somebody that. “We’re gonna throw in five of these at midnight.” Not many people are listening, but you get it. You can even start it that way, but really, it gives somebody like the radio host a lot more freedom to sell your product.

Dino Tripodis: Right. It does. Yeah, because they could actually talk about it for more than 30 seconds.

Brett Johnson: Right. We’ve lost a generation of sales reps that have experienced radio, when it was doing that on air. I think that’s the missed connection, because sales reps don’t even know that it could happen.

Dino Tripodis: Right. When I left the station, I had a ton of personal endorsements, which were great. Probably, if I would’ve stayed, there’d be more, because people were starting to … They wanted me talking about going out to the Player’s Grill for 60 seconds, or whatever the case might be, as opposed to just running a commercial. Yeah, it is … It’s right there. They should add it on.

Dino Tripodis: At least start that way. Then, when it becomes a bigger thing, which it will, then you can branch off, and say, “You can either do it here on the radio station, or you could do it on our very successful podcast.” They both feed off of each other, and I think that’s what they need to realize.

Steve Palmer: How did it work for deejays? I imagine this, as a lawyer. I’m thinking contracts. If I’m a deejay, and I’m brought in from wherever to come in and host of The Morning Drive, or The Afternoon Drive, and I just start … I have my own podcast already going, or I’m gonna start my own podcast. I just see, eventually, conflict there, where a guy like you is gonna be, “All right. Hey, I already got my podcast. How much of a piece of the radio- or is a radio station gonna try to take of that in the contract negotiations, and where does that all fall out?”.

Dino Tripodis: I think that’s an interesting … That’s a very interesting point, because that’s where I will be if … My non-compete was up, late November of 2018. If I decide to pursue other radio options, I have this podcast that goes with me. Now, there are certain radio companies who are embracing the podcast world a little bit more; are into streaming a great bit, in a huge way, and stream their stations all across the country.

Dino Tripodis: I’m aware of the fact that some of those companies would take Whiskey Business, and do something with it. How do I negotiate the monies? That’s another conversation for another time. Yeah, there is something in there. Now, I also consider it to be kind of an extra thing that I’m bringing with me.

Steve Palmer: You bet … If I’m representing you, and negotiating for you, I’m thinking to myself, “All right, this guy’s been in radio for 25 years; done his podcast for five years. He’s got this business, this business, and this business who are paying him regularly to just be on, and talk about their products, or do whatever.” Now, when you bring that to the table, you’re … I don’t know sales in radio, but I do know this – it’s all about finding the business, right? [cross talk] The lead is everything.

Dino Tripodis: Radio sales have local clients, and they also have national clients – national dollars – that they go after, as well. Yeah-.

Steve Palmer: You’re bringing leads to the table. You oughta get paid out on that.

Dino Tripodis: You can. It can be very profitable. I was always envious of the really successful salespeople at the radio station, because they were making twice as much as I was making-

Steve Palmer: Sure, sure.

Dino Tripodis: -in sales. They were making it … When they would bring me personal endorsements, I knew that they were making twice as much as I was making, but that’s fine. You’re good at what you do. Just take it to the next level, or add this on to it, and you’ll make more money.

Steve Palmer: Right.

Brett Johnson: … I walk into agreements with the new podcasters. In my contract with them is I don’t want that audio content when our contract ends. What am I gonna do with it? It’s done. When we part ways, it’s all yours. I’ll give it to you. It’s in a Dropbox; boom, go with it. Work with the next person, or maybe the podcast dies; whatever it might be. I don’t want any of it. Radio stations may be a little quirky about that, that it’s … I think a deejay/on-air personality has to really walk into it really, really smart.

Steve Palmer: If I’m negotiating from [cross talk] from a perspective of a talent guy going into a radio, I would be very cautious, because you walk in – you start using their mics, start using their recording devices, their processors, their bricks and mortar, and you’re gonna record your own podcast, you gotta be careful who owns it. At some juncture, if it takes off, and I think they will, there’s gonna be a lot of lawsuits on where the money goes [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -interesting. I’ll be aware of that, when I get myself in that situation, if I get in that situation, but I don’t … Once again, I will stress this: radio stations, you’re listening. You want your jocks to be engaged in social media. You want them on Facebook. You want them on Instagram. You want them on Twitter. This is … Right there, it’s in that same wheelhouse of exposure. Embrace the podcast, as well as all those other things, as well.

Brett Johnson: All right. You look at it as a business, Steve. How do you approach it, if you’re [inaudible] radio advertiser, are looking at possibly starting a podcast, but also use radio. What advice would you give?

Steve Palmer: In other words. if I am looking to do my own podcast, and get my brand out there in one form or another, right?

Brett Johnson: Right.

Steve Palmer: I was lucky in a lot of ways, in that I got to hone my skill, so to speak, on air, in dealing with stuff coming at me on the fly. My profession being a trial lawyer sort of gives me somewhat of a skill set that I practice regularly on that, but it was very helpful to see the inside of the radio station, understand what a microphone is, and then, how to talk on the microphone, and get comfortable with that.

Steve Palmer: To do your own podcast is not necessarily easy. Even I was worried … Not even I, but I was worried when I started. I was like, “I think I can keep it going …” I guess my first bit of advice is don’t think it’s easy to go do your own podcast, but if you’re gonna go advertise on the radio, what has worked for me was being on the radio. It’s not just saying … Not having somebody read my spots; not have somebody record, and hit play 10 times a day, alone. It was me having my personality on radio.

Steve Palmer: Now, if you can’t do that, a podcast is a great way to do it. I would say start with other podcasters; start by doing what we’re doing around this table, in the sense that you can get comfortable on a microphone; comfortable having people talk to you; comfortable talking to people. Then, use that for training wheels for your own podcast. Then, have a niche, and enjoy it.

Steve Palmer: I would be careful now with my dollars. If I’m going to a radio station to say, “I wanna advertise with you,” and they give me a price tag, I’d be very careful with my dollars on that, right now. I never saw it as that being the product that I wanted. I wanted my personality to be reflected somehow on the air. I guess that’s my advice. I would be cautious with going to radio, and doing traditional advertising, at least as a small business.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, and I’d have to agree. It pains me. I got into radio because I love the audio medium, and the influence it has on us. Radio has changed in my 30 years. When I first started [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: -mine, as well.

Brett Johnson: -basically same era. It’s a totally different beast, right now, than it was, and it’s kinda what drove me out of it, because it just, it’s not the same. If I wanna listen to music, I’ll go to Spotify. I don’t have to listen to a radio station to really listen to it. I hate saying that, but that’s just … It’s come to the realization … If I wanna be entertained, I’ll listen to a podcast. I’ll find a podcast that’ll entertain me, and inform me. I think you’re right. Be careful what you do. You gotta be really careful with the dollars, and such. Do some homework. Do some homework.

Dino Tripodis: Again, I’m not defending radio, but radio is still a great avenue to advertise on.

Brett Johnson: It is.

Dino Tripodis: It’s effective. It’s effective, but, yeah, sure, be cautious, and see where exactly … How can I maximize these dollars?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, and I don’t mean to be too critical of radio, either. I love it.

Brett Johnson: I do, too.

Steve Palmer: I loved going on that show. Here’s what I have learned, though. The other side of my coin is this – a lot of people listened to me on Wednesdays, on that radio show, and there’s a lot of listeners out there not listening to podcasts, between those hours that I’m on, listening to that show …

Steve Palmer: The other bit of wisdom I have is don’t sell that short, either. There’s still a lot of value there. I guess I came into it from that end, not the spend money on advertising end. I got here first, then I spent money on advertising, and they worked together. This is sorta where we started.

Steve Palmer: Going the opposite, I don’t know that I ever would have done it. I don’t know that I ever would have been sold by a radio salesperson saying, “You, as this lawyer, can make a lotta money in return for advertising your spots on the radio.” Now, I’m not saying that’s not true. I might have been able to do it, but I don’t think I necessarily would have been sold on that. I would not have gotten my head around that, particularly in the internet age, and everything else.

Steve Palmer: I think being mindful of what’s coming up behind us … This generation of consumers is different than what I have ever seen, and what I think most of people older have ever seen. We’ve never seen anything like it. Everything’s done online. Everything is done quick, quickly. Everything is … You’re going to Spotify. They’re not gonna listen; they’re not gonna find their music necessarily on the air. It’s gonna be found where they want it [cross talk] and where it saved, or wherever it is. I don’t know what it all … I don’t know what it’s all about, but I would encourage anybody to podcast. It’s a blast.

Brett Johnson: Exactly, exactly.

Dino Tripodis: It is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. Like I said, I think it’s made me a better broadcaster. It’s made me a far better interviewer. That skill has increased tenfold just from doing the podcast.

Brett Johnson: Yeah, there’s a lot to learn from it, that’s for sure. I think we’ve answered the world problems.

Dino Tripodis: Have we?

Brett Johnson: I think so. I think so. This is where I wanted to go with it, though. Thank you for the discussion. Finally nice to really meet you [cross talk]

Dino Tripodis: Likewise.

Brett Johnson: I meant to ask you, too, you’re doing some live stuff, too. I know Steve and I have kicked around, trying to get Lawyer Talk live on stage. You were at the Podcast Festival.

Dino Tripodis: I was at the Podcast Festival, and we had a blast doing that. If you can get on-board with that this year when it rolls around, do.

Steve Palmer: Absolutely, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Since I also come from a comedic background, comic background, I’ll be talking with The Funny Bone, here in Columbus. We’re going to do a Whiskey Business podcast comedy show.

Brett Johnson: Oh, sweet.

Dino Tripodis: Basically, it will be I’ll introduce the podcast; I’ll have a comedian come up, and do 15 minutes; then he’ll do 15 minutes with me. Almost like a talk show, like a variety show, but it’ll be the podcast. He’ll podcast with me for 15 minutes. We’ll do that with three comedians. They’ll go up, do 15, and then, sit down at me for 15, and then, so forth, and so on.

Dino Tripodis: Once again, from the technical arena, do we stream that live? Is it just recorded for later? Don’t know, but … Do we bring in video cameras? I have the capability, because we’re also filmmakers. I mentioned John Whitney, and myself … We’re filmmakers, as well, so we were in that world, too. We have the lights, and the equipment to do all that stuff, if we need to do it. How do we structure it? I don’t know. I just wanna get butts in the seats, and make that happen, so that it’s successful.

Brett Johnson: Yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Doing the live stuff is-

Steve Palmer: It’s a whole new world.

Dino Tripodis: It’s a shot of adrenaline. Now, I come from a live-performance background, doing stand up, so that was my first big thing in radio was, “I can’t hear the laughter. I don’t know if they’re laughing. I can’t hear the laughter.” I dig that. I dig that live, spontaneous-.

Steve Palmer: Well, there’s an adrenaline … That’s like trying cases. You would be good at it, probably.

Dino Tripodis: My mother always wanted me to be a lawyer.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, you did the right thing.

Dino Tripodis: Yes, she wanted to be a lawyer. She always said, when I got outta trouble, “You’d be a good defense lawyer.”

Steve Palmer: There you go. There you go. No, there is adrenaline rush, being live without a net. It’s what you’re doing, right? I couldn’t imagine. Stand up would scare the bejesus outta me, man. I would be like … I don’t think I could do it.

Brett Johnson: It’s like going out there naked.

Dino Tripodis: I’ve always made this joke to my attorney friends; I’ve always said, obviously, it’s too late for me to go to law school, but if I had … What’s one thing you wanna do before you die? I said, “I would like to do the closing argument. I would like to be the closer. I would like to come up … I would like to, after everything’s going on, do the closing argument. Talk to the jury – that that speech to the jury. I wanna do a closing argument. I wanna say, ‘Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I’m not really a lawyer, but, is this case really about the law?'”

Steve Palmer: Not at that point, it isn’t.

Brett Johnson: He could give you insight on that [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: It’s never about the law.

Dino Tripodis: -I wanna close. I wanna close.

Brett Johnson: Oh, man … Steve, thank you for jumping on at the last minute. Once I knew [cross talk] I knew we could bring three different perspectives on radio, and podcasting, and obviously we just, we scratched the surface, but it’s just our-.

Dino Tripodis: Do you drink whiskey?

Steve Palmer: Not anymore. I am now three years without alcohol.

Dino Tripodis: Wow.

Steve Palmer: I just liked it a lot. I never got in trouble, or I never had any issues, but, one day, I just woke up, and thought, “I don’t think I’m gonna drink alcohol anymore,” and I’ve never looked back; but I did love whiskey.

Dino Tripodis: Well, we’ve had guests that do not imbibe on Whiskey Business, so, I’d be very … We should cross-pollinate here on the podcast-

Steve Palmer: Let’s do it, for sure.

Dino Tripodis: -and get you on Whiskey. You do not have to drink. In fact, that just means more for us.

Brett Johnson: It’d mess with your keto diet, anyway, right? [cross talk] Yeah exactly.

Dino Tripodis: -does that work?

Steve Palmer: Oh, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: Does it work?

Steve Palmer: I feel great, yeah.

Dino Tripodis: How long you been on it?

Steve Palmer: Almost a month now.

Dino Tripodis: Yeah?

Steve Palmer: Let me tell you, I feel awesome; almost euphorically awesome … There’s a point of euphoria, where you just feel like you can conquer the world early on. Then, you just sort of realize the little things. I was hunting over the weekend – it’s muzzle-loader season – I was out hunting, and I was hiking up this huge hill; had my 12-year-old, or soon to be 12-year-old son with me. I said, “We gotta climb up that hill.” He’s huffing air, and doing a … I walked up there. I felt great. It’s not that I’m exercising a lot, or doing anything like that; just my joints feel better; I rest better; my sleep is better; my awake time is better; everything is just working better without really …. If you could just say … Everybody would agree with this – don’t eat a lot of sugar.

Dino Tripodis: Right. I agree with that.

Steve Palmer: Don’t eat a lot of processed carbohydrates-

Dino Tripodis: Processed foods, yeah.

Steve Palmer: That’s great. If you cut those things outta your life, you’ll feel a lot better.

Brett Johnson: Except …

Dino Tripodis: You gotta cut whiskey, too, right?

Steve Palmer: No, you could work that in.

Dino Tripodis: You could work that in? [cross talk] Maybe I’ll give it a shot.

Steve Palmer: Yeah …

Dino Tripodis: I can deal without the excessive sugars, the processed sugars, and some of the carbohydrates, but, I’m a man who cannot live without his bread [cross talk]

Steve Palmer: I get you. I get you.

Dino Tripodis: Anyway, we’re going down rabbit holes, since you talked about [cross talk]

Brett Johnson: That’s okay. It’s not a problem at all. Thank you both for being part of Note to Future Me.

Steve Palmer: All right, thank you.

Dino Tripodis: Our pleasure, thank you.

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In this episode, I’m taking a sidestep. I got to interview Dino Tripodis, host of the podcast Whiskey Business and former long time morning show co-host on WSNY Sunny 95 in Columbus, Ohio. Also in the studio with me was Steve Palmer, main host of the podcast Lawyer Talk: Off The Record, and owner and partner at the law firm of Yavitch and Palmer in Columbus, Ohio, as well as the owner of 511 Studios.

Okay, now you’re thinking what do we three have in common…

Radio and podcasting.

Dino, of course, with his years on-air and his podcast. Steve is now entering year number two with the podcast and has been a radio advertiser and a part of a morning radio call-in show on WRKZ 99.7 The Blitz for over 10 years. And I’m a 35 year plus radio broadcast veteran with experience from on-air to sales.

I have been itching to cover this topic for a long time. And I have two great guests to talk about how radio is either missing the boat about podcasting, or has seen the light.

We three have different viewpoints coming from three different perspectives and it really made a great recording session. Thanks for coming along for the bend in focus.

Recorded in Studio C at the 511 Studios in the Brewery District, downtown Columbus, OH.

Brett Johnson is the owner and lead consultant at Circle270Media Podcast Consultants. With over 35+ years of experience in Marketing, Content Creation, Audio Production/Recording and Broadcasting, the podcast consultants at Circle270Media strategically bring these strengths together for their business Podcast clients.

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If your business is using podcasting as a marketing or branding tool, I would love to showcase your podcast. Go to www.notetofutureme.com and scroll down to my booking calendar. Email us at podcasts@circle270media.com to set up time to talk more about your new or established business podcast.